Human Factors Cast E004 - Automation

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today on human factors cast its our automation mega show

welcome to human factors cast your weekly podcast for all things human factors psychology and design here are your hosts Nick Rome and Billy Hall

hello everyone and welcome to human factors cast I'm your host Nick Rome joined today by mr. Billy Hall always joined by mr. Billy aw I love these little moments with each other man Billy how you doing today I'm doing great I love this conversation topic I think you you've been in like a kid on Christmas over this topic hi this is awesome I can barely contain my excitement so what are we talking about today we're talking about automation right okay yeah so we mentioned this on the last podcast mm-hmm now automation we were really alluding to it a lot last time right it was one of those things it was kind of like a great line it kind of kept creeping into our conversation right right right and so this episode we're actually not reviewing anything we're we're just gonna talk about automation because there's so much there and really with what we have for you today it's really just scratching the surface okay it's not it's not even going to well I can't even go over everything it would take like an entire semester and an entire class you can have you talked about this forever right this is kind of like the 101 this is yeah or is this more or even less than the one on the syllabus that you found on the sidewalk kind of yeah no that's it's analogous to the syllabus that you found on the sidewalk you're not even enrolled in the class just you just kind of heard about it now was this a big was this a big thing you wanted to get into when you were actually becoming the human factors practitioner you know I love automation personally I mean I've I've I'm into the whole home automation playing I aspire to have a Tesla Sunday I am very much an adopter of automation and it's just such an important part of our lives that yes this is this is something that's very interesting and very near and dear to me okay great now bare bare bones basic let's just get into it what is automation because I thought it was kind like we were talking about it back and forth I was thinking along the lines we were talking before our previous episode was uh oh man I'm having a moment I'm having radius episode uh previous that what was it oh my god we just recorded this come on come on help me out here okay uh I'm wait I'm gonna see how long it takes you all right here we got look look for last week's show notes we're somewhere around here there's your D&D characters oh okay no I don't know I got this I got that right let's let's see let's see what did we talk about uh Amazon echo and okay that was what we reviewed okay hold on I can't believe this it's been such a long week Oh so don't why are you doing this to me I'm just gonna give you a little hint okay I had something to do with computers computers computer don't all I chose technically have something to do with computer technology so that really wasn't a head yeah that was terrible hey you're a monster I am okay come on help me out what is it with uh let's play 20 questions go okay uh we did the Amazon echo yes correct we did hang on let me let me say what's unique about the echo the echo was a voice controlled right system that we can talk that we can talk to right and we were talking about voice controlled systems yes yeah we were talking about video prompts people online feedback God why why is this happening to me right now I'm all I'm so just tell me computers are social actors social actors yeah yes yes that's what it was okay all right so what's the what is automation and how long why did we keep going back to it with that right so automation that was such a huge tangent of this shows already so huge all right so basically what automation is yeah is any sort of system that controls some sort of equipment or program that basically takes the place of or assists a human with a task right or basically an automated task without with minimal or without human intervention now what I was looking a little bit at this with the clapper be considered home automation clap on clap I know what the clapper is I'm trying to think so what the clapper does it's still an input right I mean it's still technically automation to some degree I don't know it's interesting because you have to draw the line of what is automation at some point but according to this definition right is it is it a control system that allows minimal or reduced human interaction I would say it may be it's it's like automation for walking over to the switch over to the switch or is your still or to turn the knob on the lamp go across the dark room right so yeah I mean you're still you're still providing an input to get some output right the input right be the clap or the light switch or the knob whatever the output would be the light turning on uh-huh now if you look at it just from that input-output standpoint there is no automation going on there because it doesn't take over any task for you you are still initiating some task to turn on the light yeah but what if you what if the light switch is on the other side of the room using the clapper cuts down on the ability to have to walk here's okay let here's what would be automation okay say you hook your lights up to a timer mm-hmm and that has effectively replaced you turning on and off the lights Oh kind of like dark during the holidays when I set up the Christmas lights you got it okay all right that would be considered automation I I wouldn't consider the clapper automation because it doesn't really take place take any action for you whereas if you had the timer that actually turns them on and off for you without your input uh-huh okay I just like the idea of having a clapper I mean do they even still sell those I'm sure I imagine so okay so control systems operating equipment with minimal or reduced human in Turin intervention right yes light switches on/off switches things like that no no no okay like we just talked about it's anything that takes place of a task so the the timer a piece of automation it would be that yeah the the actual light switches would not be automation okay so why do we automate things I mean ease of life of course but like we do this in agriculture industrial I mean things replace people all the time to make things easier on people why do we do that you just said it is robots taking our jerbs they took our jobs they took our job so one of the primary reasons of course is to save you know the humans from doing all this hard labor you know it all so there's there's a ton of benefits to automation right so one you don't have to pay the person to do it uh-huh two you save energy you know and with automation oftentimes there's less mistakes that are made because we're human oh and what do humans do make mistakes all the time right so there's also a sense of consistency in that yes if we automate a especially seen that stitches together pants especially for repetitive jobs yeah mm-hmm you want that thing to be do the same thing every time well humans are really bad at doing that right right right really bad so why would you not want to automate a system to do that for you from the perspective of the business owner that makes a ton of sense right right my one big machine even though it may cost more than a year's salary of an employee it might cost more up front but in the long run I'm saving a bunch of money on that on materials because they didn't mess up on energy because you don't have to pay the air sorry I'm late because you'll have to pay the human to do it on energy because I mean you know the machine can probably do it more efficiently than the human could mm-hmm it just does it really fast and you can get more output for that so yeah basically I mean it's used to eliminate these boring jobs these dangerous jobs right working in a factory is dangerous right right right automating things help save human lives right so that's good too and it's also yeah it also is used to replace unfulfilled jobs ah yeah we've all had those soul-crushing jobs and things like that right so I can see where this is coming from right now is there some sort of like hierarchy or level of automations yeah that's yeah so there's these levels of automation and these these to me are really cool so what these are are these are varying degrees by which automation intervenes with a process right so or it's varying degrees of human input to a system right so it's a it's a range from one to ten where you know what the at the low end of the spectrum the human basically has all control of the tasks and they basically let you know that they there's no computer or no automation intervention okay so we're kind of like what it's like pressing a license plate you always see that guy pull a switch thing comes down presses the lightning license plate this is this is this is turning on a light there is no way there's no automation there okay okay right all the way up to level 10 and this one is kind of scary to me and you'll see you'll see why as soon as I as soon as I read it the computer does the action if it the computer decides it should be done the computer tells the human operator we of it the computer decides to let the human know no you're out I'm out you're out Skynet by that that's incredibly scary to me now I can see how this is idea of working now in the basics idea that I know of science if like for example the computer decides that the cool it needs to be flushed in I don't know a reactor of some sorts right it would be it would it would just know to do it when it decides that it gets to a certain temperature a certain degree which is do it how about this there's a fighter jet pilot uh-huh you know I work a lot in the military there there's a mech this is maybe I cannot compare theirs okay so there's a fighter jet pilot right well let's say this fighter jet pilot huh hits something insane like eight G's and they lose consciousness okay okay do you want the the automated system to go hey human I'm waiting for your input before I start to automate this task of recovering the plane mm-hmm or do you want it to decide oh the come the human is out I'm going to level this plane off and make sure this human doesn't die okay so it's kind of like a failsafe type of thing kind of now the last part of that right so computer tells the human operator only if it decides the operator should be told yeah how does that well that's that's the scary part is that the computer itself is deciding whether or not to tell the human what it has done doesn't have a moral dilemma does it sit on the stoop with its friends with a copy and it's hansung I don't know what to do our algorithms moral dilemmas ooh we're just making up episodes as we go along we are that's what that's what you get when you listen to our podcast we just print ideas yeah and so so all these levels they actually play into the way that humans process information - mm-hmm okay so you mentioned playing a role right you mentioned humans processing information how they do that and the automation plays a role what do you mean by plays a role so they're the automation can come into any part of the human processing process I guess you know there's this there was work done by parasuraman and you know he's he's passed away but you know he'd done a lot of work and automation he has a cool name he does but there's there's basically he came up with these four ways basically that automation can come into how humans process information right there's it's broken down by sensory processing Oh perception and or working memory decision-making mmm and response selection so in plain English what that breaks down to is you the human are receiving input you're you're looking at the world right I see the world big picture right and there's a difference between sensation and perception and that's a whole nother episode but those ideas ah so you sense the world right yeah yeah and once that signal is inside your brain aha you process that information right okay yeah I see a landscape I say that the landscape is pretty that's because it went through my brain and made me think that you got it and then once on top of that you you make a decision and then after that you make the response so you see the world the you process the world in your brain you make a decision in your brain and then you make a response uh-huh right so let's say you get a phone call on your phone okay okay ring-ring get angry you see on the color ID uh-huh it's your girlfriend calling you in the middle of the podcast uh-huh then you in your brain you process that information aha right in my brain I make a decision not to respond to that message and then my physical response is not picking up the phone right and then later on it can lead to other responses right I just want to thank Justine right now for providing me with that excellent example in the middle of our podcast so yeah I mean that now here's the thing automation can come in at any any part of this process right so so let's say in that sensory processing mm-hmm you can have a task automated for that right okay so let's say you have a display with a ton of information mm-hmm now what information is is relayed to the human well that's all automated based on the situation right so let's say let's say for example you're driving along in your car and you're just driving along and you see the speedometer and you have a digital display right okay yeah okay and all of a sudden fancy you see a display pop-up that says low fuel okay right and it's not just your gas tank it says you have this many miles to get gas uh-huh right so that is automating what information the human sees right so the computers deciding do I show this no we're not low enough on fuel yet do I show this no we're not low enough on fuel yet okay we're getting pretty low I'm gonna show the human this this display right I'm gonna talk to the human right human makes up his mind right and and then that you know there there's these different levels right we can go all the way through them but it there's a lot of automation involved in decision-making as well as response selection right and and the whole point of this is that you can have varying levels right you can have let's say for example I'm gonna use that car example again mm-hmm you know in the sensory processing stage it uses high I use the higher level of automation because it's deciding what to show you hmm now your response whether or not to go get fuel or not the car is not gonna do that for you I see yeah I see your your it's gonna be a low level of automation on that stage so just like the idea of like my cell phone my cell phone tells me when my battery's at 15% right I can set it to actually tell me when it's at thirty fifty or sixty or seventy percent right and I can tell it tell me this when this happens the it analyzes my battery all the way up until that moment happens but it doesn't actually change the process when it happens there or I can set it to like a night mode and when it decides what time it is or it's dark enough it'll auto set my brightness on my phone right so that's a form of automation instead of me physically doing it myself yes you got it takes care of it for me yeah I'm learning things here people I am learning yay okay so do you trust automation well I mean like what is that old tech support line it's like TR 80 it's the idea of like there's a trouble between the keyboard and the chair is the problem with the computer you know what I mean yeah I know like it's a what is it like I want to say it's like TR IAT there's something like that that might actually just you 53r yeah yeah you feel like they are something along those lines you 53-yard problems so I understand that it's us making these problem but it just seems like sometimes we it might wouldn't it be considered the idea of over complicating it I mean like the fuel gauge system ready pewter chips we're adding a computer reading wires we're adding sensors we're adding wires to that sensors nuts bolts connectors on something that we go down the freeway and take a lot of stuff with us and run over things and sadly maybe even hit poor woodland creatures once in a while stupid skunks but I mean like all that sort of stuff happens to our cars and we're adding more to it when we can simplify it and it's just a combustion engine which can break down but that's years and years and years of development right do you drive an automatic yeah I you can't really get a stick anymore do you know what an automatic does yeah so you got me there it's not like I can't like I wouldn't drive a stick I mean my car has electric seats and things like that that's not by choice that's because once again people want that so much because they think it's easier but those things are problems like right now my driver's side window is busted why because I have an automatic window and the little button switch doesn't work anymore so I have to pay 70 bucks to get that thing replaced and if I took it to a mechanic that's like three hundred dollars so automation does come with a pitfall because of the fact that these things break down right yeah and it's interesting so there's a whole field on trust and automation I'm like I said earlier we are just scratching the surface of all this stuff right I mean I just don't know if I can trust it really though so you know people can over trust or under trust automation and you know there's a for example I mean do you trust your phone to root the phone number that you just dialed to the correct number right there yeah be an operator for that yeah yeah yeah okay so like on that level sure but when I see your point when it comes to mechanical automation because there are a lot of failsafe but that that's or that's it sorry not failsafe there's a lot of failure modes but when you when you think about all this stuff I mean there is they tend to make these things modular so that you can replace a part in the system and not just replace the whole system well it's like this like one time we had a major Brock out a few years ago here in California I don't know if you were here for it but we had a major blackout for it right and the problem was is that a lot of cell a lot of cell towers were an issue okay a lot of people had cellular problems because a power outage there was a big storm going on things like that or when there's a crisis back in the day we used to have landline phones right yes problem is is that if the power went out landline phones go out right but then we made those cordless phones that have a little bit of a battery in it okay so there's that it okay it's one problem but now we have cell phones if my cell phone tower or a couple of them go down for some reason I'm Sol I don't have a landline anymore and things like that we're just missing older technology for newer technology and see that's the thing what happens when these things go wrong well in your example we got complacent with how you know our phones worked mm-hmm we got complacent that no matter when we picked these things up it would always do the automation tasks that we were expecting it to and so when it misfires we're expecting it to not do that right and then you know it could go the other way too right like let's say let's say for example your phone frequently didn't go off when you press the call button right those those would be like a false alarm right like you initiated it but it didn't go off or it gave you a notification but it was it didn't really have whatever the notification was like you got a new Facebook message from one of our listeners oh wait we didn't actually get one we got seven and it only said one okay yeah yeah yeah I've seen that happen yeah like in my wake where I work sometimes we have like places that our cell phone dead zone for reasons so you know my cell phone won't work in that situation you know what I mean right so it's one of those things I'm not used to and it's kind of annoying when it doesn't happen even though I know it's not supposed to it's still a pain but I mean like what kind of ways can automate used in design right so right now there's it's a huge field of how we can you know integrate integrate the human into automation processes right and there's there's a whole biz this area at my work that's dedicated to just this problem get them in here one of these days we should like all of them all like 80 90 100 of them the whole know we're like 50 employees we got to get all 10 so I mean yeah you know InDesign uh-huh right we have to take careful consideration how the human plays a role in the automated system right why are they just providing a trigger do they have some sort of decision that they have to make in this system that an automated is that an automated process helps them with right now one example is it can it can be used to take shortcuts for humans although to do things like we said earlier you know those boring repetitive or dangerous or unfulfilled jobs right right in specific or specifically I'm thinking about calculation okay the calculator automates calculating for a human right so by that logic it is taking a shortcut I'll be using an abacus or using your fingers or using your brain to process multiplication division subtraction oh I get it I mean like do you know my phone number I don't know your phone number I do know your phone number oh well my guess is it's very easy very easy in general though could you name a lot of the phone numbers you know unless someone you've known them for years and years and years I mean I have like five phone numbers memorized in my head how many people are in your contacts you think hundreds that's the thing we don't have to memorize phone numbers anymore near lunch we don't you know I mean when's the last time you saw a payphone that's a good question like I've seen I've seen one but I was in like a weird place you know what was we don't talk a lot about like pop culture on the show but we should we should but I was watching stranger things have you watched that you know I've been meaning to it's been getting a lot of pretzel it's so good so good I really gotta watch it everyone says it's amazing it is after the show I will sit down and watch the first couple of episodes Oh oh good I mean it like captures the spirit of the 80s perfectly okay like without pandering to them it does it it's so good well I mean like one of the things that I talked about with the of that idea is I mean I'm going back to the idea of automation it's almost getting to the point like the 80s that's such a foreign idea to us now no cell phones no internet everything we had to do on our own if you wanted to research something go to a library sit down and I'm the book hope to god that the books are in the place they are the library has them or wait for weeks for the library to transfer it or transfer it or or use those I used because I'm kind of a library nerd I love library sciences but I mean like I have used those little data feeds where you slide the different newspaper articles or college and a little beta readers I use those they haven't actually you know there's so much fun don't look at it anyway stranger things has that but they also have a payphone that's probably the last time I saw that's what we're going from yeah I was talking about the ideas of before automation I was still trying to be on topic way to go on tangents no I'm just kidding I'm always the one it goes on it's okay to do tangents on the show I think it's what makes us human so hot automated I fear those days but I mean like okay so we were you're talking about the idea of it's a big field and when you say field I'm thinking it's creating a lot of jobs for people right yeah and and the idea of it is is that it's interesting because we're taking I mean like the quick checkouts and I've always been a little weirded out by that quick checkout stand okay because we're not necessarily you know walking through the door it's taking the money out and scanning all our items that are in our cart right you still have to scan the items it's it's basically we're basically doing the cashiers job with the editor prompt yeah now let me ask you this is the cashiers job absolutely necessary that's the thing is it I I mean like I and I fear that I hate using them because I'm like if we all start using them a lot more often people are gonna be like I don't need do like I went into a fresh and easy that that's all they had Wow where did you find a fresh and easy aren't they all like wow okay okay let me alone okay the food is amazing did you ever buy their stuff the great stuff but I mean like I went in there and they had like two people do help you through it really quick they're out of business they're not gonna give you free stuff for saying it on the podcast I can dream they'll make a comeback I believe it CompUSA still exists in some form or fashion I know it yeah and I okay so anyway you were saying that but I mean like I go in there and they had no cashiers I don't have cashiers that they have like six people who work in this large store probably twelve stock in the food and then two guys at the front who if you have a problem they may help you with it why pay a cashier for something the customers will do themselves and that's the scary thing like I don't know you highly-educated people it doesn't matter because you can help develop and build these things but yes loot collar guys like me well no here's the thing so what it does is it displaces the cashier from a cashier role to a role where they can assist customers okay so it actually just it just moves people around it doesn't necessarily get rid of jobs in the sense then you're thinking of I mean it can it can replace a task but what it what it's actually doing is just displacing them and and oftentimes I'm not it's not a blanket statement I'm just saying oftentimes you know it'll it'll take that cashier and put them on the floor and say hey what are you looking for well that's down here let me come on so it makes it more of a concierge but it's more of a service instead of a so you're able to actually offer more of a service for people but you still don't need as many it's not so a new business to it that's interesting yeah I mean it really is interesting how automation is taking over a lot of these tasks that you know we used to we used to think we're like I said earlier boring dangerous all these things hmm and and you know what's really interesting too is that you know there's varying levels of automation or not really varying levels we already talked about the levels but this is more like a adaptive so like let's say let's say you are in a system right okay and you make a choice and the computer responds to that choice and provides you some sort of automation based off your choice so kind of like if I spoke a different language and I call they always say press to Franklin duke +1 ring let's do the Spanish so I'm so kind of yeah so that in that example you call it you call a business and it says press 1 for English para espanol press DOS all right yeah for countin presses oh man don't worry I I could never got through Spanish anyway so so yeah I mean in that case yeah but it's responding to your action right whereas in one case it'll present the options in English and the other it will present it in Spanish and and that's really interesting too because it tries yeah it tries to sort of you know make sure that the operator when it when it elicits a response from the Hohmann it tries to make sure the operator isn't lost in the system right and just as a side note there's this idea of keeping a human in the loop right and what does this mean so where this is most prevalent as you can see this in like automated vehicles so like self-driving cars right imagine you get behind the wheel of a Tesla okay rolling it I love that Tesla rolling in the podcast oh yeah right because this is bringing in so much so much money you guys start a podcast and make millions wait for so many you're driving behind the wheel of a Tesla I'm driving behind the wheel of a Tesla car you're on autopilot okay Coco cables driving me and all of a sudden the system buzzes and says says put your hands on the wheel okay yeah okay but you were reading a book or playing Pokemon go while you were driving I shouldn't be doing that well no you shouldn't be you can it's automated because it's automated it's doing the job for you I'm driving but the idea is that if you were distracted if you were not paying attention to your to the situation around you something we refer to as situation awareness which is a whole nother show always with these generating show ideas but the idea is that you would have no idea what's going on with your surroundings is there a reason why why what is the reason that the car is asking you to put your hands on the wheel and take control like if you have no idea it could be really bad news for you so there's there's this interesting challenge of keeping humans aware of the system aware of the automation that's going on and having them jump in at appropriate times that will you know help inform the automated system as to what to do next so we're kind of like the overlords to the robots were the human overlords now we are yes yeah I can't robot overlords we're gonna be human overlords the matric was wrong people the matrix was wrong you know you know what's funny um so you know I'm like a big virtual reality guy yeah yeah yeah I do a lot of VR stuff confession time I have never seen the matrix the movie the movie y-you know at first it was just like a of like actually being available available to watch it or you know having having a desire to watch it really and then I got into VR and then everyone anytime I told somebody that I haven't watched the matrix I I would get the same reaction that you just gave me what really like you I mean like I'm not one of those guys who are like you never saw the Goonies you're a monster what is wrong with you you know I've never been one of those guys because it's like I always believe its availability you know and I mean it has to be like if it's something that's I'm surprised when no one says they've ever seen a James Bond movie because they're always on cable right but then again people don't watch cable anymore but I mean with this it's like that's what I study yeah that's what I work was weird and I still haven't seen it but now the reason I haven't seen it is buzz no not fight not spike no I I know the whole plot yeah and that's not the reason I don't watch it the reason I don't watch it is just because of that reaction like I don't want to watch it I do I do I I have a friend who's never seen any of the Star Wars is why that exact reason okay just so you can Goldeneye felt just right you go to other nerd people and be like I've never seen Star Wars you mean the new ones you mean for a week no none of them never want to see them you know I knew what you were doing and I still asked why I just I fell right into that trap but yeah anyway so all that to say that you know automation can kind of inform you wow we went on a really big tangent that was I think I mean okay though this this idea of it is is this this is such a broad spectrum and it is really integrated into our lives the automation seems to be from everything you've been telling me the little that I read on Wikipedia when I before we do the show because I do a little research to just so I can come up with questions and and you know things like that I will turn you into a researcher yet yeah everything that we do for it it is really integrated into our lives like there was tons of links and articles about how automation has helped agriculture industry moviemaking green screen effects design freaking writing colleges everything automation everywhere yeah get track of people it's such a seminal part of our lives and when we don't think about it you know it fits in seamlessly right and it seems to have been in our lives for a long time I mean we only look at it now because we're in the digital age but I mean this stuff has been going on since the early like 18th century when people we had those little riggings where you pull one lever and it rigs the whole sale for you yeah you know things like that is a Rube Goldberg machine automation I'm sorry I just had my brain leak out a little bit is it I mean wait okay so it is but it's very bad automation wait wait hang on so the purpose of a Rube Goldberg machine is like literally to move one object into like a perpetual cycle right sometimes it's also just to do a simple task right like okay it's like a wound like a chain reaction okay so I would argue that if it's just like a repeat loop uh-huh right where it doesn't really do anything well that could be considered a task - wow I am really overthinking this sometimes I just think of these insightful questions to ask and I end up sounding like an idiot now you're gonna be thinking about it a whole drive home you're gonna be like is I mean like it does do a thing that you could normally do it just does it in a really stupidly elaborate way what do you guys think comment on our SoundCloud or Facebook or Twitter is a Rube Goldberg machine automation in fact to us I'm gonna be thinking about that now I feel smarter just thinking about thinking about it I am so glad that wasn't this week's question I would not have been prepared I love wait it's not this week no it's not no it's not that would be that would be awesome but just to stump you like that but still now we've talked about a lot of the things and how Automation is intricate in our lives pretty much now yeah but applications of automation right so I think we already touched onto a lot of them right right I mean there there are these things like Tesla self-driving cars like Google's car but it doesn't it's not just limited to that you know there's there's other vehicles I think Mercedes is coming out with a or maybe it's Volkswagen I'm not sure they're coming out with a self-driving bus so public transportation will be automated Wow like we don't have to unionize machines you know anyone we don't I mean like the only and it's only a matter of time before we automate the process of making automation machines to the point that we can have those people anybody who's not as educated in automation work the machines to make automate does that make sense I don't like falling in on itself but I mean like but what if you make machines to work on the machines automated machines to fix automated machines you know I'm having like flashbacks of that wall-e movie now that's kind of frightening have you seen them I have yeah you know everyone's really tubby yeah we're really toffee so I mean those with it we Rob way there we're men of the flexure right that's right ladies of men of the future but I mean like one of the things that I came up with while we were actually even talking about it while we're film one of the things of automation I'd even think about was we mentioned it earlier but one of the earliest forms of automation I think I remember that's gone now is phone booths it replaced the idea of being able to actually have to either physically go to someone's house or go home because you've got needed to call somebody I guess if you break apart automation into its simplest form which is replacing a task although a phone booth isn't a control system I mean it is but it's not it's got buttons dials and yeah but it's not a control system for the walking or transportations this car like the clapper situation though so what a phone booth would do is automate automate physically going someplace to somebody's house or having to go back home like if you forgot it okay I see what you're saying all right I don't know I was a good question it's it's almost a philosophical question right I mean well that's what the things I'm coming up with I mean we've done a lot of automation like what's the earliest thing invention of automation you can think of well there's um so I know the term automation was really big when Ford first came about and they came up with these assembly lines yeah and that's that's really when the term kind of started getting steamed haha but I I'm positive that automation has been around before that I mean I don't know I I couldn't answer that question on the fly at at the research it a little bit well I mean like that's the thing there's a lot of forms of automation like I was looking at I'm gonna look it up right now I'm on my phone I'm a terrible person but uh you're looking at your phone while we're on the podcast I know did you know Wikipedia has a wiki a wiki from that's so meta yeah right automation wiki look if the first thing on my Google search because I've gone to it so many times that's automation yeah because it knows what you want to put in it does because this is a cool thing that I like that's a Shrum Metford i'm getting excited about this automation stuff i'm a little bit cool i'm a little bit still freaked out about at all but it's still really cool like you know you know what would be really cool is if we automated like everything and we just sort of you know made these robots who took over everything and ruled us what are you or have you ever been a replicant I can neither confirm nor deny you're a monster oh I mean like wait so one of the earliest earliest a nation according to Wikipedia the earliest feedback control mechanism was used to tent the sails of windmills ah it was patented by Edmund Li in 1745 I'm sure it had to have been around before them because they had pulleys and levers way before then well I mean it's like the first is that the first patented one the earliest feedback control mechanism okay which would have been the earliest form of automation right yeah I mean that's the idea because I mean it tends to sail it does the job that a human should be able to do but one person can do it while it automates putting the canvas over the things for windmills well if Wikipedia says it's true it must be true obviously obvious must be well that's interesting that's interesting I mean like that's one of those things it's it's it's one of those things like it's being a part of our lot it's kind of like humans use tools it's kind of the reason why we're on the top of the food chain we're not the biggest we're not the strongest we're not the scariest or the best hunters but we develop things that make up for those laughs oh I'm so glad you didn't say we're the smartest oh no we're not even that I'm so glad you didn't say that because I would have had to make a huge counterpoint on that but anyway what would have been the counterpoint do I really need to go into this like why don't we this I mean the smartest I don't know why not maybe the more most resourceful but I don't you think an ant smarter than me I'm smarter than it I'm messing it up so man here's a whole nother topic no smartness and intelligence all that stuff boils down to different factors and it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with

what we're talking about here so for example like a person who is musically inclined is not necessary but like all right think about savants okay someone who's very skilled in in something right it could be could be music it could be doing mathematical calculations but they may be for all intents and purposes

inept when it comes to social right or something like that we all know people like that there's different levels of intelligence and there's different factors that play into it anyway my point here is that animals have a different intelligence like you for example wouldn't know how to follow the snail trail or the ant trail that leads you back to the Queen you wouldn't know what the Queen wants unless I mean you study this stuff I get what you're saying so so we are not necessarily the most the smartest but we are we might be the most resourceful I will say I will say all right I'll digress to that one anyway but oh we were talking about I mean this was a lot of stuff applications of automation and we were talking about the earlier forms of it you know right now right I mean like I was talking to my the idea that we we replace certain things to make up for things that we lack right Kingdom is becoming a big part of our life right I mean you you know what's you know what's interesting to me is this bot movement so like a lot of our social interactions are now becoming automated so like you can order a pizza with a chatbot oh yeah I've seen that I don't want to do it just because I don't want to be that guy it like seems like sometimes automations I just don't want to do it cuz I don't want to be that guy you know I really want to try it I would just want to be like hi Domino's how are you and see if they like respond back I spent I've been not a whole lot of time but a couple hours on like these chatbot sites just to see like it's all al just a feel human contact it's automated human contact I mean it's all it's all weird because it's like it's all algorithms driving what their response is and sometimes their responses are just so human seeming that it's kind of creepy we need to have a whole nother chat on robots okay yeah you know I tell you right now like the worst ones is I mean especially since I try to run a lot of the social media for this podcast right sometimes it's like people will hit me up and I'll be like yeah unda none of that oh yeah you like the show they were like yeah and then all of a sudden they'll be like if you want to see my pinks go to this website I'm like ah you got me you got me I thought you were a real person wait so you went to the website and try to get these pics no yes that's when they would have got you know they got you know they got me because I thought I was talking to a human being or that old adage everyone always has where they're talking to a person right and they're just reading through a script and like man I hate machines and the person's like do you think I'm a machine people do that it's scary it's creepy because we can't it's the lines are starting to get blurred Wow anyway that's that's a lot of automation to take in I'm glad we had a super-sized episode for it I mean I think we we could even do probably another one like recant in someone oh oh yeah if you're interested let us know let us know but this next part of the show this is where we take the questions from you guys our listeners Billy what is our question today I like our question today because it's it's a it's a meaty one it is when he were he writes what is he guys since you're talking about automation this episode or well he said next episode because it was a while back but responding to our last episode how how do you guys feel about the euphoria world where people only have to work because they want to as more jobs go away more money is provided to people to do with as they please now the first part of this I was weirded out by Pete what do you mean more money is provided to us oh wait Han the first part of this is hey guys since you are talking about automation next episode you were weirded out by that no I'm just kidding Yeah right so no yeah I didn't quite understand the more money is provided to people to do with as they please what I kind of understood him as was you know it's kind of like a free society we just we just kind of have our way with whatever we want and automation kind of takes care of the rest of the chores for us right so we are basically a species that I mean we're still policed by robia wrought by robots obvious obviously our robot overlords but I mean us humans we're free to do whatever we want right so it's a euphoria world so there's no there's no terror there's no it's it's perfect okay okay right or that's utopia I mean it's still euphoria it's the idea that there's not a lot of strife right right I mean there's not a lot of wants or need for things you go get food because you can a robot does everything from killing the cow to cooking the meat to putting it in a hamburger and serving it to you yeah but delivering it to your house so I mean like let's say for example in the perfect world in our lifetime let's say the whole world becomes automated okay everything the whole world's automated yes all right I I can go down and get my bean and cheese burrito just how I like it you wouldn't have to go down there they would bring it to your house okay let's say I have to do that right okay you talk with a chatbot they chop up Suns it and how am I making money I'm still paying for services like my cell phone bill my housing do I still have to pay somebody something don't I I mean like maybe unless this is a euphoria world where that doesn't exist everyone just gets what they want see I think this is the part I'm missing in my head like I don't understand the idea of free and I know that might be very jaded and cynical of me but I don't understand that idea because I see it as kind of a scary thing where the idea of it is people so many jobs are replaced by people that we have to figure out a way to take care of them and then there less and less jobs for the average person like you're more educated than me and a job I couldn't do your job you went to school for a long time to do your job on the other side of that maybe you couldn't do my job but a lot more people can be trained on the job to do my job you know what I'm saying okay let's get back to Clint's question here though because he's saying in a perfect world where everybody gets what they want uh-huh right you know it within reason uh-huh okay no one has to work unless they want to that's that's the question he's getting at so if you want to work that's fine everything else is a hit how that's the thing I don't ask how he's asking what would have all had unicorns would I fly on a unicorn I think a lot more people would make podcasts that's looking this question really got me I'm like I don't I don't know if it's just like a short circuit in the brain or what okay so look here's here's the thing are you ready for the thing oh okay so you kind of hit it with the podcast thing uh-huh this is my thought my thought is that humans because everything else is automated mm-hmm we would become consumers of entertainment right that would become our medium so I mean and you can see it now everyone's making a YouTube channel everyone's making a podcast yeah we are because we consume at an alarming rate people will sit and watch twitch for hours of people playing video games people will watch other people eating yeah that's weird call it entertainment no offense to any of you people who watch other people no no it's just different people so I think that if this euphoria world existed right where people only had to work because they wanted to they would basically create art right or they would work on themselves or they would work on themselves but I think I think the trade would then become art I think you trade one piece of art for another everything else is taken care of for you by automation automation can never replace the beauty that is human art I get what you're saying it's kind of like that old Star Trek adage where data tries to paint a painting or write a poem you know it's the idea that the machine has trouble doing these sort of things you know I mean although machines have gotten increasingly better at writing short stories so I don't know I mean like the idea of the creativity is you're talking about a world where we focus more on the idea of self improvement and self creativity you're talking about Star Trek I'm talking about this euphoria world that Clint brought up to us right it's like a Star Trek type of thing though is what Dark Star Trek is not a euphoria world by any means what people don't have money they don't have crime everything is automated for them they can travel wherever they want to go they can get on a ship and go to a different planet it's all free oh is it okay yeah it's like free I never watch Star Trek Wow okay I'm talking about human race too there's other people that have it but Star Trek is all another I'm a Star Wars guy we know this why do you have to make those distinctions I feel a time right now I'm no I'm kidding I'm not saying that Star Wars is any yeah you better Star Trek I'm just different different things for different people right exactly it depends Star Wars Star Trek people watching twitch to watch people eat exactly exactly exactly so I mean like we would have I mean like if I had know if I lived in this phoria world I'd be able to go and I'd be able to travel the United States because trains are automated everyone's connected you can do it I could go and explore stuff I could do that would be awesome because I would just the only boss and the only obligations I have are to myself yes that would be awesome that's how you don't understand that's a possibility I don't I don't think it's a possibility I think this is a hypothetical question that gets it Automation yeah that's fundamental level like if everything was automated how would we as humans handle that but that's kind of how we're going I mean garage door openers there's always gonna be something new buzz there's always gonna be something for humans to do that's that's what I believe I don't think we can ever fully automate everything there's always going to be a market for people like me oh you monster you're gonna be our Overlord aren't you there you're gonna become a cyborg and you're gonna becoming overlord no but like look what let's say there's always going to be this human element of how humans integrate with this automation all right there's got to be someone to look into that and say oh look they're gonna have a hard time when this automated system does this until we get to the singularity so there's gonna be people who will take my job uh-huh and then there is gonna be people who create art oh that's that's going to be the dichotic and there's gonna be scientists who I I can't ever see there's gonna be okay astronauts scientists probably I don't know we can automate firefighters which is scary we could look here something like cops and judges and lawyers I think that's gonna be automated I cop well I totally think Robocop well I mean automated I totally think that there will be criminal justice systems that are automated in the future and because of all the social commentary right now right now especially yeah you got me there dang it that's a scary thought that I mean like I'm terrified of a euphoria world look here okay okay okay Han I'm gonna pose a question to you what if there was no longer a jury of your peers but instead a computer algorithm that sorts through all of the evidence for and against you and decides based on a probability how guilty you are nope no you're out I'm out because it's a jury of my peers it's not the idea of whether or not I did it it's the whether or not of reasonable doubt and I know that sounds horrible to say right but but that's dokku algorithm could take into account reasonable doubt no I don't I don't want to leave my decision up to something that doesn't have a sense of compassion mind you I sense of compassion can be programmed in notes it's a parameter it's a parameter in an algorithm at this point we're talking about like AI like human sense sentient not sentient creatures from sentient robots right yes we'll save that for the robots episode okay okay okay all right so that you know what about you what do you want would you want to live in this euphoria world no it would be boring because I'd always get what I want and I would never have to work for it why would it but you would you think what if okay we have taken consideration of something here if you and I currently lived in that world I think we would either find a little bit okey if we were born into that world if we were born into it it would be maybe fine yeah I mean like you think there would be a little bit backlash there's always a little bit of backlash of people who are like no low-tech rules no cellphone eat granola granola is great they're not gonna send you anything for saying that on the show nature box it's for everybody and they love podcasts own nature box come on all right I'm calling it that's it for today that's it for today alright if you guys want to be featured on our show we're all over social media go ahead and comment on our SoundCloud Facebook or Twitter or you can send us an email at human factors cast at gmail.com with all of your questions be sure to LIKE and follow us on all the social we're always trying to keep in touch with interesting topics that you want us to talk about on the show articles magazine anything I've been your host Nick Rome you can find me on LinkedIn calm slash Nick's run Billy Hall where can they find you they can find me on Twitter at calm sod where thanks again for listening us to us here on human factors cast until next time it's a page