E232 - Will Future Humans Live Their Entire Lives in the Metaverse?

Welcome to human factors yeah your weekly podcast for human factors psychology and design. Hello everybody it is episode 200 trips to a 32 wow. Right off the bat in the early yeah I should probably re do that all right ready. Hello everybody welcome back in this episode 200 32 we're recording this live on 1/20/2022 lots of twos in there and this is human factors Gaston host Nick Rowe joined today by Mister berry Kirby Hey good evening Hey good evening we do have a great show for you tonight we're gonna be talking about living your entire life in the metaverse and later we're taking some of the questions from the community about whether or not you want to attend accredited versus non accredited H. FES master's programs whether or not job titles are truly important and. Let's talk about statement of purpose that's that's also an interesting topic but first I just a quick a community update we are still taking applications for the human factors cast digital media lab if you are interested in that. Please let us know reach out to us and we'll be happy to have a conversation with you about what the lab can do for you. All right we know why you're here you're here for human factors news so let's go ahead and get into it. Yes we have quite the interesting story this week very why don't you break it down for. So the stories experts say people will soon leave the entire life in the mix of us so do you have a word with films like ready player 1 all the matrix wage cookie selfie don't put on the suit for the alarm in the virtual environment able to look at how you we should do what you want tied to the day to day grind 1 the truck travel the world see amazing things then transform into an entirely new person well contribute you mean look experts believe you'll soon be to live your whole life in the metaverse the director of consulting for future today institute told the New York Post she believes that a large proportion of people will be in the midst of us in some way by 2030 while many will be using only for work she believes that he will play a bigger role for others. In fact they had I need the will the will live the majority of their waking lives just awaken our subject in and wearables will have made it may be is pervasive smartphones today the CO 3 D. software startup sees him told the post he added that he believes that the products like Facebook oculus headsets might one day completely replace cell phones. Does the whale from not and even at 2030 prediction is very likely over overly ambitious many of us technologists to willfully Arcadia because anyone who's ever wanted okay this product for more than half an hour could probably attest so while some cookies are jumping on to this mess of a strain in a big way the technology still fed you'll find in them to to a relatively small number of use cases like video games and deeply unpopular concerts bit harsh but they do admit the fully realized metaverse such as necromancer ready player 1 is likely far off into the future saying that if you'll asking when will all be running around Neil like in the matrix it's probably a bit further out the 2030 so like where were you with the with the best of us are you ready to jacket or do you just want to tell it to jackal. Did you workshop that one before it was a good a lot. Wow look at so. Man this. In the far future. The far future. Maybe maybe maybe life will be so abysmal on this planet that we will need. Permanent form of escapism. In the near term no not at all I this this story is an interesting one and I'm really glad both our patrons and the general public chose the story tonight because this is one that we were kind of teasing last week about virtual reality and and really all this stuff I am curious on what your thoughts on this article are just got check and then I'm gonna talk about what the metaverse actually is before we get into a little bit more deeper discussion. Yeah I mean I'm just there with kind of is it really is and we we talk about this right now I can see the appeal to some extent you know the we what we'll all watch various films and and things like that and read books way you yes I see you talking to your to your station and there are a lot you can see a number of advantages they they you know you you can be who you won't send on that type of thing but you do have to stop being a teenager at some point and there is missing human contact I mean there's so many people now especially I think with the with the pandemic a lockdown topping that you really now I guess rally shoal understand all these appreciate human contact when you get a bill to see people for so long so I can see more online happening I can see the the back to we can integrate with online getting away from people to mice and and I'm 2 screens is a that is a burden that will enable us to have a great experience but. I can't see is going to the point of living our lives a lot in the way that this article certain subjects because of what a whole lot of issues out there so we were we going to get into so in the photo think about it. What is the matter of us what what do you think what do you believe the metaverse is yet let's talk about the metaverse this is a. Really ambiguous term when you actually think about what it could be and I think I think about the metaverse in the same way that I think about virtual reality. Where where virtual reality is. Traditionally thought of as like you you put these VR goggles on and you're in this. 3 D. computer animated environment. And I I tend to think of it a little bit more broadly than that virtual reality is any anything that takes you out of what you're doing and puts you either mentally or physically or metaphysically in a different environment and so this could be anything as simple as like story telling to me right you you you are transported to another world when you are reading a book. And somebody is so vibrant with their words that they're able to paint a picture of what it's like to be there and if it's in you know first person the book then you're able to transport yourself into that environment. I I think. That's a broader version of. Virtual reality I think when we talk about the metaverse to me this is just as ambiguous because you could very easily replace metaverse with internet and. It would largely have the same. Conceptual basis behind it I think. When we talk about metaphors I think that the broad understanding of it is these virtual spaces in which you are navigating through or or interacting with. In a 3 D. environment so I think that's what people think of when they think of these meta versus right you have some sort of virtual avatar and you can go from different environments different environment and interact with either other people in that environment or other characters in that environment and and the purpose of those environments is for a variety of reasons it could be like. You know you could be in a mental health space where you are. Meditating or you could go into a game space where you're actually just playing a video game with your friends or 80 watching space where you're watching a TV show with others or this. You know if we want to get really immersive some sort of shared space where there's immersive storytelling happening all around you and and you're able to witness it from your perspective and so. There's a lot of things that the metaverse is is meant to encompass or. That the current version of the metaverse encompasses and I think there are a lot of. Different issues when we think about actually living in this environment I wanna get your take on the metaverse what is it to you before we start jumping into some of these concepts see the this is where I I think it's quite interesting because we look at where we're at now when you're right when we talk about the rest of us we shouldn't we get into this automatically assume it's an immersive environments all goggles all you know it's it's visual it's audio it's it's bring all that together and it's not where you're at now but then when I just saw a breakdown that would matter it is all about just thank you to all of the data and you when you said it's about you know it's true for the rest of the internet is is that kind of it because you you could almost live longer that what we doing right now you know we're in 2 different countries to different time zones coming together through the ends that to provide a almost a a number you know visual and audio experience for the people you know it is not not the best of us will probably not work don't forget what what people's imagination of it would be because we don't wear goggles we note in some sort of hyper realistic environment Sir. Yeah I I don't know I think I think it. It does have to include a that the environment because that's what the people are led led to believe it is but I think actually could be a lot a lot simpler than that what we doing but some. Yeah I think like say if it's a big US I think there is some is gonna make a lot of money often fundamentally yeah I think I I think you're right there's there's there's a lot of different definitions of the metaverse and there's a lot of different concepts of what it could be and what it is but let's talk about some of the human factors issues with being online all the time and specifically with living life in the metaverse and how all this kind of plays into the human factor side of the house. We have this broken down by a couple different categories physical issues mental health social issues environmental issues and control issues. Where do we start what would you wanna tackle first well when I start to look at the issues on the ticket is really interesting when you think about it that you've got to look at your thank you the human element the human factors of this in 2 different spaces so I might be taken as is given the the interface that you interact with so the the the the rest of us that the visual aspects of the old you that they could I mean we kind of they will leave all the time we know about good usability that respect to make things make things engage the loose a lot of work to do in that space what really gripped me was that if we can live in that mix of us. How do we what are things we need to consider in the real of the physical. University M. I. R. everyday living that we would need to work I will waive existing. Some incredible so start off with I mean physical issues that lets you know the fundamentals of your body needs to hydrate and it needs to have nutrition and exercise and things like that if you'll constantly plugged in all you got yo M. screens on so a good percentage of the day even if your. You know you will 67 times a day for work and then you you've done just taking off well you're going to be so you're gonna sit and sit there and you need to have eaten stuff you need to drink something so does that mean you we should be good to have IV drips does that mean we gotta have they we we've got to have food fed to us by in the good form through to medical devices how do we deal with exercise I mean I'm not the smallest person to it as it is and I spend trying to spend as much time away from the desk as as as I comes from that now I don't get is get some exercise how do we make that the. How do I make I will make sure that we get in the exercise so we don't become massively overweight though I guess if we moderating the amount reading drinking because they come in through through lines of maybe that's a bit easier. We see it and go back to the the the film the matrix where they talk actually they hit this in terms of we'll select if if you don't moving around very much your muscles are going to be used for you know when you actually come to get a pro all you know if you if we need to go live in the real world thank you muscles are just kind of wasted away. We we do have some specialisms of skills and not because what happens when you go into space as well before that he told the brakes you know we could be able to deal with waste products of of the bodies well something that just I am full of them them physical issues that we've got to deal with I don't know is that is that something is that so many other issues that sort of popped out to you that you you think we should be exploring yeah you may I I do wanna touch briefly even you mentioned that we kind of have some of these usability issues I am down there are some concerns that we need to think about it from that perspective this is not one of those categories that we really had initially but I do want to talk about it briefly you know we have. Are these usability of issues of like how do you navigate within these virtual spaces how do you navigate between within spaces is it intuitive enough to kind of point the cursor in that direction and move over in that direction or is it. Are we eventually going to hook it up to our brains and and have our brains control our avatars motion through the environment so there's a lot of other usability issue that we have to consider with some of these advances in technology if we truly want to get to sort of this metaverse immersive experience feel like where their type of thing I don't think we're there yet I think there's a lot to still. Discover their and what we'll talk a little bit about this with the social issues but then there's also. The actual usability of how do you interact with other people do you go up to them and type in the space or do you speak out loud is their proximity. The proximity chat where you can hear others in close proximity to you are there ways to meet other people are there ways to. Sort of enhance some of your friends volume as they're coming through so you there's a bunch of usability issues with that as well and those that I just wanted to touch on that because I think we kind of glossed over that but there are. Those are just a few examples of many many challenges that will have to be overcome if we truly want to get to the point where word jacking in a a plug to our brain and and being able to interact with this virtual world right. I know conceptually the metaverse we just talked about it is is not quite there in maturity yet but I think that's where a lot of people see it going up there. And you write that whole interface to how we plug into it you know everybody maybe things will the matrix way you're going to have this big probe in the Bacchae ahead I mean what the practicalities old structure such an interest I mean bringing CI is a is a becoming a growing field of the moment but I think just the the elements old how do you actually physically so many want to get you want to stop using any sort of personal devices you will just die rechte could lead directly to cations which is that's backed up 11 nails that straight off will that'll be the game changer. Yeah we have a couple other categories here you wanna talk about mental health. Yeah I mean the mentality because this could be really. Pros and cons with this too said exam because 11 of things is but we could easily distracted reality and therefore if you constantly are in in the back of us and you that that means that you'll curate saying your real version of reality at any 1 time because you look you talk to people to talk to you and see what what to say and therefore you don't get challenged level would you be as well your mental health or business the welcome from book by the same token all those things that almost impresses in real life you know of everything from a physical appearance to what you what you look like we 1 of the issues that they have come out around sort of Facebook and Instagram and things like that is the need to drive 64 young women to look certain ways and actually this way I will well this thing could could help because that alone ID rather have to buy filters that all the time you could have your name into the talk can be whatever it is that you wanted to be so you can be who you want to be also then you well Sir this could working really 2 ways I just worry that. The day will be disconnect between your true mental state and you're protected mental state. ET and I I mean that's happening now this is happening now with people who catfish other people yeah they are they are in some cases embodying these other profiles on on dating websites that that they feel it more accurately represents who they are as a person and they're using that as a way to connect with other individuals. To kind of bypass the the physical attraction that happens between 2 people. Or or to hack it in a way so that way they kind of get in to to have a conversation with them and it's incredibly it can be incredibly destructive in in some cases. And and that is something that will have to consider. Moving into this you know virtual environment this this metaverse where yeah the way we interact with others is is going to be very different because. I think in some in some ways when we interact with people here now in reality we have sort of an intuition around whether or not that person is being truthful or dishonest in this this is a lot of different psychological factors that goes into this like like like body language or. Can you write it in the notes. I mean we could do we could jump into social issues too. Let's let's do it because we're talking about it right I I'm talking about catfish let's talk about the social issues and how these relationships that you're having with other people are they real I don't know it you'll have to kind of approach this virtual metaverse with the lands of I can't trust anybody who I'm talking to you and I can't know for sure who I'm talking to but if everyone's jacked into the metaverse and everyone's living there than is it is it then then how do you deal with these these. These differences in identity where are you do you even have a physical identity at that point or you're just existing online this is a really complex. Well I think to think about and and the way that we interact as humans is going to be fundamentally different in a virtual space and it would be a physical space because we won't have all those biological markers that we have in in real space right we we will see somebody else sweating when they're lying we won't see their eyes shifting in different directions we won't see them fidgeting all the stuff is hidden in a virtual environment so that's a lot that we have to consider I I mentioned that in terms of body language right. We'll just take it late with their hands while they're talking I'm you know exhibit a I'm I'm over here. Just to kill a lot of my hands. And and so I think. In terms of how we interact with people there's going to be a difference there's also sort it sort of the ability to be connected with others in it in a way end of the scale that we as humans are not built to do right I think we're already seeing this with stuff like social media we are connecting with others at a scale. That we were not biologically evolved to do. I can send out a tweet from the human factors cast. Twitter at and it will reach many people and it's it's kind of crazy to think about that we didn't have that type of. Environment as we were evolving as humans and so that's a whole nother. World in which we have to consider is how do we communicate at scale that's still something that we have to figure out and how do we sort of interact with people at scale. Was there anything else from that social issues that you wanted to touch on yeah I guess the I mean the. Justifiable M. expand on on a couple of dates the you know when we interact with people you know we we thought maybe potential negative bits but it's the you know when we when things are found during the the pandemic is when you I give a lot of presentations of stuff online now and if you if I give a live presentation if you give a life presentation in front of a room you can read the room you know whether people taking things a and you know the right did not get along with you will that the frowning in the mail that you maybe take that as a as a Q. and maybe have got your point of a quite vital you can skip of some stuff all that type of thing you just can't get that when you're presenting just were screen you know if you if you got yup the people with that that covers it all switched off and all you're doing is presenting to a bunch of letters you don't get the same sort of feedback loop that that you had no circuses them the accomplishes reedy is a really good example as well because actually beat how do we build you know romantic relationships and in the midst of us with the the religion a meaningful I'm actually and I watch but one of my first act of sort of caught fish the other day the well that that was it and I opening experience and that should be this they'll decide do the maths of us is is just going to make that potentially more prevalent but then is the relationship falls if it works in your head you have you never got if you never meet that with that with the person on the other side. Is that relationship D. means anyway if it's not if it does include what you think it is but it is always you know it is only it is to you what you think it is. Right that's a deep question I think this is this is a great kind of segue to a question that we got in the chat here from Derek I do you feel that this would fall into a separate sector for human factors professionals I think there's a lot of underlying psychological issues here that we have to consider but do you think this is is this falls into a separate sector for human factors professionals rethink it falls under that B. R. umbrella. I think I don't think it necessarily falls into a separate category a separate sector I do think that there is scope in the short term for it to be its own sector it's obese because it's good to be so normal it's going to be it's going to have such a cold coalescing of issues there's actually we need to be able to address the mall with a. You know but a real focus on its but actually all the issues that will come up but don't you know a lot of the attributes we need to deal with from usability to environmental to social to mental to physical we only do that as as a supposed professionals already in in the different sectors that we have in the in the different conferences but I think there is there's definite now you have to focus while Ste the lawsuit which was. Was it because you still consider any in its infancy than numb come we you know we we should probably have a good laser like focus on it to make sure that the we're the forefront of of what's going on with it. Yeah I think I think from a kind of an initial perspective I think this is kind of a stem out of the virtual environments if you're looking at like H. F. yes they have a they have a technical group focused on virtual environments I think this could be a good segue from that the baby where the seminal research will stem from but I I tend to agree with you bury that if if this does truly become more prevalent. This this might just live under that virtual environments I'm bralette maybe that umbrella gets bigger and we try to figure out how to do all these interaction with with all these different you know social issues environmental issues control issues all the stuff I think. There are different technical group search subsections sub. Efficiencies of human factors that already contribute a lot to this and they were really if we're really talking about and and earth 2.oh or like a. A separate environment in which we. Engage and I I don't know if it really makes sense to do that it could it could but I just I just don't know I think we're still so far in the infancy but I can't see that far out. That's a that's a great question thank you for that one I really appreciate that. Let's let's get into some of these environmental issues. You wanna talk about this one since I took social issues yes Sir I mean the environmental it really is about no on on a day to day basis we interact with the physical environment we you know we we we touch it we tasted a lot sort of stuff and the environment thrives over the wise because of our trucks with it how does that. What comes the environment will we spend all of our time inside virtual environment what comes our real physical environment a on the on the face but with the lack of you know that date the day to day responsibility for 4 of his government but also the the virtual environment requires a certain amount of food it's got to be it for it to run so just generate the power to if everybody's. Okay into the best of us that's good requires you know a certain amount of luck you have basic needs electrical production where's all that going to come from if everybody's checked into the into the best of us so there is the H. R. it stops him by article lack of symbiotic relationship with the real environment that I think we're going to have to. Well we gonna have to look at that could be interesting and I don't know I don't know quite what that is I think it's just an issue that we need to be aware of this is what we do we just get to a point where we can control robots in the physical environment with our virtual selves and then we can just kind of build stuff up around us while we're all plugged in right yes that also for sorry not to get back to social issues but that also poses another problem for humankind if we're all in in this verse how do we how how we reproduce and keep the human population stable yeah. That is also another issue that would have to be. The matrix yeah I mean there's there's there's a real fundamental issue with with with all of this as well which is. Who controls it he was you know that let's let's talk about like democracy let's talk about you know will power will control because if they're busy today in this matter of us. Who's a fundamentally running the metaverse who has responsibility for its how how does damage to democracy represented self in a matter of us is it right that 1 company 108 a small handful of companies owned not only the data that you're putting into it and react with it but the fundamental principles behind it and controlled could you basically they would literally have gold like control of your life of your working environment so viel all you know all that sort of thing could make it a land with the tree keystroke. So where do where does democracy of applied to today Sir where is your put your your privacy rights of them and how do we stop abuse of power means hot enough to stop to stop abuse of power in the in the physical world at the moment the mind as a matter of us. I just see a whole load of physical physical controls in the hold of a political issues the wood greedy good should come front and center with this and ask the so what question. Yes this is a good cook this is a good point and I think right now you know there's there's definitely one company who has a very strong vision on this. But I think generally the way in which the metaverse has to. Come out and sort of evolve I think has to be natural and I think it has to be a contribution from many different sources for this very reason right yeah and and everything needs to be able to play nice together from a technology and infrastructure standpoint to the point where we are making sure that you men's come first that those privacy concerns are checked at the door we say Hey you're entering this new space and here's everything that we need from you we need biological data we need you know all the stuff that could potentially be read into the environment and so we want to make sure that that is salient as human factors professionals want to make sure that that information is salient and communicated effectively and that the people who are interacting with those spaces understand who's in control in who has. Sort of admin privileges of being able to. Kick you out of that environment or or restrict your access to the stuff. Democracy is is a interesting one. Because we're thinking from it from a western perspective and a democracies might not work for every culture and so that's another thing that you have to think of is like what what type of governments do exist in these environments are they truly democratic or they you know of some sort of. Communist state where you have one person that dictates everything right I I don't I don't know it's it's a question that needs to be explored in that space and maybe it's a way for people to. Almost remove themselves from geographical borders that might be an interesting case study where maybe you have somebody that's living in one country that's jacked into the metaverse but then they're kind of living within the political structure of another digitally it's it's it's a whole complicated thing that needs to be thought out yeah I think I think these are all really interesting points and definitely. Some of these human factors issues that we really need to iron out before we get to that point where we are living in the metaverse yes. So do we left with we should have really thought about that one yeah it's kind of like I I I see this is kind of following the same trajectory as a facial recognition where it's like we can do this should we do this we should probably check the thought that about this before we did this. And and and I think you know we're kind of following that same trajectory and it's that's why it's so important to include human factors. In into these stages at the early early stages of design. Especially for these almost life changing or or societal changing. Technologies. You have a point here about our experience with the V. R. M. the metaverse is do we want to talk about that at all. Yeah I guess the it's just a highlight that. The this idea of much of a season new research also the VR environments isn't you you know anybody's out to go on the oculus quest old or just referred to as the other bit I've got no the Chris quest to and I think it's it's quite good fun when I remember to use it sometimes it can set aside for ages before actually I enjoy using the. He'd say was one of my favorite games of but then you know I've I've played with some of the bits that that are really interesting but then a second life was supposed to be the big thing is going to be that everyone's doing concerts in second life the BBC was doing unique I would was doing you know big things in in second life is going to be the.that amazing thing and it didn't it wasn't was large I wasn't thought everybody that impressed but then minecraft at the moment the you know a great representation of of of of the environment the kids like to plan and you know I like playing in there as well it's it's it's good it's simple you can do you can do what you think is the best of us in its own right I'm not I'm certain right Fortnite to write because they're having their having the virtual conferences they're having these. These other events right like they showed the first trailer for episode 9 for the first time in an interactive form in Fortnite and they have all these different characters in it so it it that is kind of what I think of the closest thing to our idea of the metaverse right now and then of course you have Facebook and and they're trying to make their sorry metta formally Facebook trying to put their spin on it to. This last point I'm glad you put in virtual conferences. It is it's going to be back to order via a the one of the previous episodes where we where we talk about virtual conferences lands yeah. But they. Quite good that's but for the men I mean well you know we work as one of the ones that I pull out would be the the bureau as always conference that they have they have their reputation it was put to the closest metara and. But metrics means you would have I would do that because it includes a lot more it wasn't just watching presentations it was much more about the direction and stuff so yeah we kind of get in there is is there another any any view of the VR environments that that stand out to you that we maybe have mentioned that the do you feel are worthy of the of the name check. I don't know I I mean there's there's plenty of. Desperate virtual reality experiences that you've had but I think to me that the main difference is going to be having everything connected and being able to jump seamlessly from one to another in a way that makes sense feels good feels intuitive and addresses all these issues that we talked about so with that said let's let's kind of revisit the question here or or the sort of thesis of the article we're citing here from futurism. The experts are saying that some day people will live in the metaverse their entire life berry do you think this is the case after we talk about all these human factors issues that need to be resolved do you think do you think yes No I think I think that I think that we will end up spending I think the average direction with the internet I have interaction with each other over the over to the digital stream will change it will adapt it will become more seamless the we will step into an environment and and that will book I think you the usability of it will become a lot a lot more fluid you you will it will become much easier to do both I still think we will have a on line and I will offline lives I think there is 1 in the short term or the in the as he gets more mature room and that there's a normal still but still a novelty factor that I think will you know we will spend a good time online but over roll I have to say maybe 1015 maybe 20 years of we will lead and find the right balance between the online and the offline. What are you what what do you think do you see yourself being pulled in all the time and not have to come up for air not in my lifetime hundreds of years from now maybe right when we figured out all these other issues to where we don't really necessarily have to be a physical entity anymore maybe we just at birth download our brains to the metaverse and then. You know our bodies die off but we live virtually. One interesting if just. Rain 30 doesn't happen often so I want to make sure it's recorded for posterity is we've talked in the past about you know go to miles are going to different talents and stuff what the metaverse Beyonce of a how we still communicate over them very large space very you know very large distances the way to you know if you've got a key functional family he went off to miles and another type of thing is this the way that we would actually make sure the families stay together well that's a good question I think we have to solve the issue of the time delay right we can get quantum computing down where. A change happens in real time across a distance that's yeah we're getting into physics here but. Change happens near simultaneously across vast distances than I think I think that we can get there but that's that's a physics problem and where human factors casts so let's. Well move on. 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Everything that the internet the metaverse if you will bribed topics that they bring us right and and you know what if you find these answers useful no matter where you're watching just give us a like help other people find this content is really helpful. We have 3 tonight the first one up here is is going to be from the discord this is the second week in a row we've had a really good question from the discord so I wanna make sure that we get to this one this is by deep sea hippo and they they write what are your all's opinions on attending an accredited verses not accredited master's H. FES program berry I'm a passes over you because you are somebody who tended to not graduate school and so are you don't have that experience and and so what is your experience maybe hiring others that have been to an accredited institution versus not as a matter yes yeah it was interesting because when I did mine but I did my bachelor's degree is in engineering was in in in human factors and it was a it wasn't that cold was accredited by the institute to get trusted by so I the basement the what I could do my job ship us do you know Joe through a whole lot of hoops and maybe that's for the better what it boils down to for me is if you're going to go so do you need in the U. K. we will talk about the C. I. H. F. accredited degree and if you want to go on and and get your full membership membership of the CHF no I'm I'm assuming H. if yes is is similar but you can go to get your full membership or you want to and you want to get your child to ship which you can get the U. K. then having the accredited degree makes your life a bit easier later on because he he it means that the instrument does what the the components of that degree walls but fundamentally later on I'm. Really doesn't matter as much I think if you if you as an employee if I know that you've come from a you go to human factors too grainy and does he must see if if it's been a siege of accredited one or H. I. V. as accredited warned. It's it's it's useful but it's not the be all and end all I thank yeah he is waving around is it depends teacher but he kind of does it's you I don't think makes a difference for jobs I'll say that because we would talk to you anyway and it's really about what you do what you've done not necessarily just the nature of your degree I think it's about what you want to go with your professional qualifications that he could have you could make life a bit easier for you. But he actually in the grand scheme of things if you want to get to a certain level it's not a block off any options for you might just just being you have to be. It will work for that element. Yeah I echo that sentiment I think from the H. FES side you're you're right where if they are accredited then they do have a certain rigor or certain standards associated with them and so. There is sort of a mutual understanding of of what you've been through what you studied in where you're coming from I think you're absolutely right there doesn't necessarily matter long term I think experience is going to have a bigger role in that and ultimately your specialty is going to play the biggest role and where you go and so if if there's a program that makes more sense because it's more focused on your specialty and less on human factors and do that I think there are some other benefits to having a program that's accredited let's say if you want to work your way up the organizational hierarchy ladder you can certainly start at a an accredited institution by becoming like a a lower. Starting at a lower position like a note taker it official note taker of the human factors and ergonomics society. Your university division or whatever it is right and and then you slowly work your way up president of that division and then you can use that to kind of. Leverage yourself into the professional environment and there are tons of opportunities for networking events and other get togethers that happened at these conferences that I think are another kind of unspoken resource available to to being able to. I guess integrate with others from that community so it just makes the friction it makes it less mix of not frictionless but there's less friction with trying to integrate into the society at large if you want H. FE es to be your home. You know other people call other. Conferences and organizations home but for us even factors practitioners right H. FES chartered institute I think those ones are the ones that are typically. Look dad I E. a you know the from those perspectives you wanna you wanna look at those right get get your foot in the door there I think that's kind of the biggest benefit to doing. An accredited versus not accredited program but ultimately I am going to point to make sure again it does depend on sort of what your trajectory is for your path if you want to study something that's very specific that's outside of that accreditation don't rule it out because you can always become a member of that society and it's not like they're going to look down on you for going to an institution that wasn't H. FES credit credit it's just it's a different set of course work. Most people won't notice a yeah honestly yeah. All right not getting on to this next one here this one 's by Jack Jack Jack on the user experience sub reddits. Staff designers as the name but this is more question about. Role title so let's get into it is retaining your title important to you in your next role so they going to write staff slash U. X. slash staff you ex lax product designers a relatively new title many companies don't seem to have passed fleshed out beyond senior. Are you accepting other offers with different job titles so long as the pay is comparable we're looking at specific roles even if it limits the number of organizations or companies that you can apply to let's talk about job titles berry is that important to you know. Thank. It's different now I mean I was effect on this the other day because when I was in a large organization than a lot yes I did the whole I joined as a he was a senior and then work to to I was a junior and senior that a principal and a senior principal before you go to N. equals important to me that point to know that I was working on another. And then you look at principal and but any sorting principally walkout one organization is the same as principal that another doctor you probably isn't right the 40 different set of standards it's just it's just the title of the other day and then on the she launched my own company and actually my. Title now yellow camouflage directed them also chief cook bottle washer you know it's almost everything going the the supreme leader supreme leader of the person who cleans up after everybody so you know it's I am now I don't care about that about my job title because. Because my my perspective has changed and I've noticed that with a lot of soul freedoms as well if you'll well my buying contracting that actually did the title to them doesn't really matter as much as long as you're doing the work that the enjoy and and and the pay is right for them on on that's paired. So he going from job to job I don't think you should move to too much but I guess it if you'll if you're in the going you know tried will cook at work a company work could be a career that way then yes I could see that it would have an importance to you but I don't think it's important outside of it when you take when you took a step back it really doesn't matter. Yeah it could help you with sort of advancing to a higher position somewhere else. But talk about what you do not about what you're labeled as and I I tend to agree that labels are just that they're there our best approximation of what a job in capsule eights and it doesn't always do a good job of doing that. And again they're not standardized across companies so talk about what you do or what you've done and don't talk about the label that's that's yeah that I have nothing else to add last one here this is by Caleb Colorado on the human factor sub reddit. S. is that desperate for help with a statement of purpose hi everyone time is coming to beginning to wrap up all my graduate school applications for human factors master's programs the whole application process has been smooth for me good for you and with the exception of writing my statement of purpose arguably the most important part of my application while I do have a rough draft work out I really don't think it's very good I've never had to write a statement of purpose before and honestly I'm not even sure when a good statement purpose even looks or sounds like. Let's see here. Basically berry I'm gonna use this as a springboard here to talk about statements of purposes and what they mean and what they look like have you written one of these yeah I'm I'm not written them in the graduate school application PCI treated to some extent because I was in the military the time I had the choice of one university so I didn't really have to fly I just looked up and said well Hey I'm here. Slightly more than that but that was basically it but when I am you know it's it's not too dissimilar to yo opening statement to the CV you'll cover letter on the on the job application it's all about for me is mmhm be honest with yourself and with what you're doing so what is it you wanted to get some tolls. What do you want to get a life for the mentally and this is where I think it's get get interesting because what I would have written. Sort of 18 to what I would right now is is different I mean I have I've applied actually because I did drugs that said the purpose of a couple years ago when I was talking about the idea of a of of a PhD and. D.. Just the ability to solicit there and say look this some kind of where I could be very very honest and say look this is where I want to go this is what I want to do which is not what I would have written the 18 which 18 you would mall right about what do you think they want to read. As opposed to now what he is you you know what what you want to write because unfortunately you I would like to go down the lotteries because as somebody who's read these things. You want to know who you'll get insight into the person you want to get insight into what they hope streams attempting to see if they marry it with your business your call for your organization and if they're very honest and you realize that it doesn't it isn't going to work you could actually could help a lot of pain right there and then for both sides doing that either yes I mean you want to go you want to go build rockets and go go to the moon well I'm sorry but I I'm I'm I do drilling you know it that you're not going to go to the you know to go to the main Michael John my business but I could probably point you in the right direction so because yes I I think that I mean I think be honest with yourself is this so important with these things what are you in even more experience I have look I wrote one for my graduate applications I I again I I I go your sentiment I would've done things very different day than I would have then because I did exactly what you said I wrote it in from the perspective of like I'm writing this for what they want to hear but it wasn't totally it wasn't untruthful it was just a flowery version of what I wanted and really it's hard to know when you're just starting your sort of experience. Like human factors was a completely different but it was it was I was in psychology and my undergrad and so I was writing it from like I have no idea what human factors is. Perspective and it. O. Hyundai stolen it looks like his company the fact that he hadn't always back I'm I probably back anyway the report here sorry the point is that. I was applying to different things and. I was writing it to be generic and I didn't know exactly what I wanted to do and that was probably the biggest piece of advice is maybe iron out what you wanna do exactly because that might have better although you know leave yourself open I don't know it's hard it's hard Stephen purposes hard. I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up so yeah yeah I'm I'm done with the. All right well let's get into this next part of the show needs no introduction is just one more thing let's see here so what is your one more thing this week. So I had a really cool experience today which was kind of fits into the massive US thing because I did a present you have been doing this work on climate economics which I mentioned before but I presented to gonna send you a fax of practitioners in Iran and what a fantastic experience old mediums to present to around 200 practitioners and through you know using the words of the internet to make that happen I'm what was fascinating for me though was I'm really rubbish it engaging with the language I'm try to lo mas at the moment but my ability to pick up other languages is is terrible and it I am appalled with myself these will people who their first language version and they were taking on board. What I was saying and you know I was talking for a good hour point 5 to 2:00 hours with and and they were firing questions at all it's all stuff that I would just like I was completely blown away by the enthusiasm of be the ability to comprehend what was going on in a foreign language with 6 just so many of them it was the incredible experience and then since that they've invited me to. Lots of groups and this that and the other they will take the time out because role writing in Persian but then but I sold jumped in they will stop switch to English and they welcome me in English and I will I was completely blown away by the whole thing in the way how welcoming they made me feel so pretty to experience thank. That's good I'm glad you had a brilliant experience now I'm gonna I'm gonna pull play out of the berry playbook here and do a 2 more things because I have to I guess exciting updates here so first off I am fan knows over here and I'm collecting my infinity gauntlet of health improvements so if you're pulling the show I've been making marginal improvements I think. You know I mentioned my mental health on on a couple episodes ago physical health and seeing a chiropractor now physical therapy so the musculoskeletal side of things is getting taken care of I went to the doctor for the my physical health for the first time in a couple years today had a dental appointment yesterday and last week I had a vision I got new glasses and so I feel like you know I just need to snap and I am getting myself on the right trajectory turning the ship around so by the time I'm 60 it's it's not not under water. The second thing anyway that that that whole said to just treat yourself but do it do yourself a favor and just get a good team of people around you to help you with some of these things that maybe you're not. Taking note of like like myself second thing I have a bad story when hear the bad story oh go on then okay the bad story so so as he. A Christmas gift to myself and my wife we sat okay no no gifts this year what we're doing is we're buying a bad instead because we've had this this other bad for 7 years and you know we we I guess on we were expecting the delivery on Friday last Friday so right after the show right and and then we got the message it was delayed okay well that's fine we were expecting to do everything on Saturday so the new bed included a new frame a new head board 2 side tables. A new mattress a new bill you know the whole everything we wanted to upgrade our sleep and so that Saturday last Saturday we took apart the old frame and looked under the bed there's black mold so we got okay we gotta throw this thing out right now. And then we get a message saying your mattress is delayed. The whole. That night I was like okay you know I don't want to deal with that we're gonna go to sleep at a hotel and then hopefully will be here tomorrow it wasn't there tomorrow so we slept on an air mattress here. It wasn't here the following day so we slept on an air mattress for 2 nights. A hotel for one night but the bed is here everything's all set up it's wonderful and we're very happy we did it so it's very comfortable. And that's my one more thing this week yeah. Well that's it for today everyone if you liked this episode and enjoy some of the discussion around virtual reality encourage you all to go listen to episode 2 or 16 that's what we talk about how virtual reality could be the key to learning. Yeah see if it is a common wherever you're listening on what you think the story this week for more in depth discussion you can always join us on our slack or discord communities and visit our official website sign up for our newsletter stay up to date with all the latest news if you like what you hear you want to support the show there's a couple things you can do one leave us a 5 star review 3 for you to do do it you can tell your friends about us that is also free for you to do and if you want to throw money at us you can always support us on Patreon or pyre bridge that's a beautiful off as always links to all of our social than a website are the description of this episode I think Mister berry Kirby for being on the show today work our listeners going find you if they will learn about Arabic. Yeah if you wanna find out about more but we'll be doing then you can buy it which is a positive okay or listen to my diesel Michael Casper to travel to the Q. 5 spoke cast a trouble to podcast.coal. As for me I've been your host Nick Rome you can find me sometimes on twitch for office hours and across social media at Nick _ Rome thanks again for tuning into human factors cast until next time. It depends.