E222 - What’s the Point of Transforming Exoskeletons?

Welcome to human factors yeah your weekly podcast for human factors psychology and design. What's going on everybody it is episode 200 22 a lot of twos we're recording this live on October 14 if only was 2/2/2022 lined up well this is human factors got some realistic Roman I'm joined again by Mister berry Kirby a good morning good good morning to you Sir yeah I did that because it's actually okay to 53 knows that yes I'm I'm in the future you are again in the future we will make future jokes all night tonight or tomorrow we got a great show for you tonight or tomorrow we'll be talking about transforming exoskeletons and what's the point what the whole point of them is in later we're gonna be answering some of the questions from the community about defining innovation and solve some of those tricky boundaries of intellectual property and when you can use them on your own work and we'll talk about optimizing strategies for dealing with local research budgets but first just couple programming notes in community update again we do have human factors minute available outside of patriotic we have all 85 episodes up there it's gonna be updating with the same cadence if patrons not your thing you could go to that on Spotify our anchor. But if you do want to pay just a penny more you get access to other things. Patrie on commercial be later I don't wanna. Talk too much about south advertisement it's just a thing that supports the show anyway I hate ergo X. conference speaking of exoskeletons we have been invited to go axe it's a thing that's happening we will provide you coverage presumably. Similar coverage other conferences that we've covered in the past and H. F. yes 2020 ones coming up with a virtual event anyway and you know we know we pick up like a lot of new listeners from the. Conferences a lot of time so if you are new to the show welcome if you went to the conference in person leave us a voice mail let us know how it went and we'll put that in our coverage a little bit later this month anyway I think it's time for us to get into this part of the show we like to call. Human factors news yes this is the part of a show where we search all over the internet to bring you here the factors news very what we have up this week so we talk about the protocol coma 1.5 which can either be a boogie or powered fix of skeleton as required so we will be in a position where we try to lift something we're not listed correctly all had to carried over distance we can't see the ground equally we put we offset producing films where we seen humans used mechanical exoskeletons to move heavy loads of a top alien almost iconic I guess X. skills and has to be I in my book we moving swiftly from science fiction to science fact so come a 1.5 is being developed by the 2 in which is a subsidiary of Panasonic designed to help both mobility and lifting so it's a dual purpose device by Alton okay also the acting is a powered boogie or 2 like a lower body exoskeleton what when carrying loads so the idea behind it is when the user is troubling on smooth level services like you know factory floors a warehouse floors make just under I have on the rake hold interest to control and they get carried along by for motorized wheels to notice the mode and it was both the smoothest ride in the simplest operation according to the manufacturer's. What should be the need to climb the stairs over obstacle the the pushing the buttons which is the essence of overdue to like about the food 2 front wheels every truck back to form 2 powered articulated legs the for the movements of the uses legs for that as for them is a step up and step down. He's also reportedly capable of autonomous autonomously spotting and avoiding obstacles you lie utilizing integrated cameras and an AI based computer vision systems is gonna know whether when the device will reach production we just open up some interesting questions resist you affected practitioners into the design use cases and issues surrounding the cemex skeleton technologies so anything up the neck. I do what's the point so much right okay so this. When I saw this and in my office hours I thought this was such a cool like it if you are listening to this go watch the video that they have put out on this exoskeleton it's in our news roundup you know we've credited them for sharing the video with us so go check that out if you haven't already it's cool to see this thing transform you know that goes up to a flight of steps and then it like you know you can you can walk up the steps. To me this makes a lot of sense for mobility. Where you know it's an alternative transportation method for those who maybe have core lower body strength that makes sense to me the thing that I'm struggling a little bit as is with the lift loads because. In. At least from the design it looks like you have to hold on to these like joysticks to to control this thing and so I'm like where's the lifting at and and maybe it's something that you load onto it I'm not quite sure but they they cite edits for lifting I may be getting too in the weeds here but that's my general impression. And this makes a lot of sense for mobility but not so much for lifting so merry what's your what's your impression of the article all right so I I agreed to I mean again the dates it's been reported through you know. Through through the through the science magazine but is effectively I think it's it's like a white papers and it's it's them it's it's promoting a bit of a product but. It's an interesting idea that they've taken to ideas I'm trying to do the whole pushing them together into one so the exoskeletons. D. I. G. as you quite rightly say to help blow blow blow the mobility is something that's really needed something that's what we search in the index defenses while as you know aging populations also stuff Informatik elected needs to be full of the lower limbs really really good in the mall we do need more do more work in that area for reasons I'm will before we go on to. And then also they need to do lifting stuff the above the ability to lift heavy things safely because people don't lift things properly you know they get getting back problems because you're lifting boxes what you shouldn't do. Is also a problem it is also well done is turned on and say right let's try and solve both problems in one machine. And I just don't like. I do I think there is a big city it does not you know there's no hands free control your how can you do the art we control the safely and properly when you when you have to you would be it just it just and feel very an intuitive to me. There was also a there's also a couple things going on here too it's not only just the control but it's a if there's a lack of this. There's a lack of support I like you're just standing up it's almost like just this mobility scooter for lack of a better word with with that with the climbing mode. Mmhm I don't know I I cut you off I'm sorry you continue. You have to drive in the other thing that I thought was interesting was this this. The introduction of a I. 2 as well so it's going to stop you crashing into things and that type thing by use of a day I mean it's come as no A. I. is are you we I was in a discussion just today about this actually that A. I. is something that we throw everything else you know if you got a little bit of a something A. I. has to be on board of everything and I kind of I worry with things like this that if you go you know if they're gonna simply stop you from doing what is that you think you're going to do with the light with the lack of support above the waist your expectedly one direction it certainly doesn't do that's because the eyes stopped it are you got that is going to fall over there's no back so if you thought leaning back on that thing. You what's gonna happen youth to topple over backwards and then the whole thing let them top of you and if you're carrying a white then yes there is but I do think I'm what I do like about the story for us is it does bring up a whole heap of human factors issues here that I think there's a lot of production items that that that are in play the it's really needs a good HF input yeah I agree either have a good segue there or or good tease for the human factors issues I do want to get into like just generic background about exoskeletons I mean we've I think we talked about exoskeletons on both on the show before and and maybe there's a couple references you can look at for that maybe we'll talk about it here in a second but just generally exoskeletons there. They can be defined in many different ways and what qualifies as an exoskeleton is fairly broad. I think in in the broadest terms right it's mechanical support for some of this muscular movement. And yet you know if you were to go beyond that I think it's even consider like wearable technology to either enable augment or assist with physical activities and and really it's kind of the assistance of the physical body moving is ultimately what exoskeletons are. I think there's largely. A. Hi there it's it's a big tent for what consider it you know what is considered an exoskeleton and. I guess this falls under that big tent when you think about this story anything that I missed there in terms of what they are I think it is I mean I think we generally Germany look at exit comes as being full school supplies so as you quite rightly say so using some sort of support to do what you are doing already so if you're lifting it provides you ball that took power one thing that we possibly don't often think of as a as a skeleton is when your providing protection. See if you got something you know that that's a you know it's you could argue that a space suit is a sort of exoskeleton. Because of the days we provide a protects you from the outside environment however I eat some ice I see the definition for the Drexel to before I don't necessarily like is I think it's a protective suit it's predictable it's not providing you any more capabilities such selected it is an interesting discussion to have because we sort of see the argued both ways but yeah I think there is either you don't depend what you'll use it for doesn't it because there is this all there is quite a wide range of use would you agree just that I'm thinking a bit free boleh coupled with the of that the. You got things like telepresence tell existence which is you know using remote control operation. I am G. could be using articulated that type of thing and he could provide the activity but because if that's a remote from you even by a few feet but not actually part of the exoskeleton that's part of this comes in nature what your doing I think that falls outside of the scope of exclusions that's remote operation I would I would agree I would agree and I think the difference would be if you had some sort of input device that maps your movements to the movements of that other thing that control device would be an exoskeleton because it augmenting your move motion your movement of your muscular you know your muscular movements with input to another device right is augmenting its I I would argue that the device itself would be but not that the controlled device. Let's get into what act exoskeletons are used for I kind of alluded to this we talked about it a couple times on the show generally they're kind of used for industry healthcare military there's a couple other applications with those of the big 3 if you wanna talk about industry what what you can do I mean I think the obvious ones you know around you know warehousing isn't it it's taken that that the stuff that's Jim do you need 23 people to do lifting moving organizing and actually using the exoskeleton to base would use the modem how you need to do the job so rather to be believed the books if you can have 1 person lifting it because they've got a big mechanical application than them and brilliance I think you've talked about this on the podcast did wanted to appease suits searches everything you own with you just to robot CS 2020 or so 66 for the force said Milind and episode 43 I'm just off the top my head. Look let lows will carry large loads but yeah I mean the industry I think he's he's a real it's it's a real photo ground for this because you know it's it's a W. any of high stress on the body lots of lots of manual inputs I'm not a tight skirt high risk the looks of risk of injury so you do use of mechanical us with the exclusions to reduce the the at the rate the risk of harm to operators is also gonna be quite high. What a health care yes healthcare is another big one right you have. The surgery which is which is an application where maybe a good steady your hand in some of those situations or. You know. You from getting muscle fatigue if you're standing for hours over a patient or something like that so there's applications there we've also talked about. You know exoskeletons in the health care domain before on the show surprise surprise and if you missed any of the references I will see them all 1 more time before we start to get into the human factors issues but we talked about having brain signals drive exoskeletons that was back episode 205 then you have rehabilitation efforts using exoskeletons. Using artificial intelligence right you said R. A. eyes on board everything. That was episode 100 99 I realized that we had to exoskeleton episodes in in a 2 month span it was it and then we had XO suits actually helping with stroke victims that was back in episode 166. Mmhm let's get into military applications what can you do with the military well the military so is one of these things particularly talking about grabbing Streep's B. need be just that because the see the military does include lots of logistics and and that type of thing which is at least what we were told but with with the warehousing and stuff but fundamentally you'll look at augmented that soldier capability so you can immediately start thinking about what you've got you know integrated weapons sites and all that sort of stuff and like that not real high tech stuff but you've got the basics of as well the soldiers are expected to move quickly and carry heavy loads and you know random terrain so you've got you've got all of these ideas if so preventing the B. Dr you know low level to be able to run and I've been able to carry heavy weaponry I'm just just have you logged in general so again you've talked about this on the on a previous episode I'm a big picture topic do you do you don't talk about much but if you go around the web so 90 fold and looked at like in the combat load that's one of these these are things where it goes into the source technologies at the bin I'm playing with them that way but ease in the multi discipline the back closely looking at all the time and unknown in the to do the work we do in the U. K. I still something that is very much on going in very potent. Yeah there there's a couple other applications and and yeah you just but like I you know it's. Really we do have a lot of resources available for X. excellent stuff we would like it because I always I always had a favorite because it's like it's a it's a topic that I wouldn't pick on my own on my own yeah it's interesting and then be in you know and and really we have no excuse since we started letting the patrons choose the news so you know it it's it's off my plate we have done a lot of so so for some of these other applications I want to get into. You know basic a basic level augmenting your ability to walk and run we talked about that episode 139. And then generally you know you you have the health care applications but I think you could also. Use exoskeletons just for like everyday use and especially with something like providing mobility to an aging population right it's not necessarily a health care concern they're just aging and and so you give them an XO suit or exoskeleton or. Some sort of augmentation to help with muscle fatigue or allow them to go further faster without expending as much energy. You know there are other applications here okay for everybody listening get out your pen and paper I'm gonna read off all these episodes for you and I will start with 1 that I didn't mention on this list and that is our coverage of ergo axe from 2018 we actually sat down and talked with Chris reed and Dave Rempel about ergo acts and that's a good place to start go X. was a pretty cool conference and it was really awesome to sit down and take have everybody in their in their dorky exoskeleton sitting in this conference and it was it was I think Dorking and daringly because it was it was an awesome conference and I can't wait to go back this year I'm really excited they invited us back. So start with there and then we have I guess we'll start with industry right you have lows carrying for large loads than in their warehouses that was episode 43 you have Ford assembly line workers that's episode 66 you have industrial robots being presented at CVS 2020 that allow you to multiply forces of carrying ability that was episode 151 then let's get into healthcare domain you have using brain signals to drive those exoskeletons that was back in episode 205 breaking a lease had a great discussion on that while I was out you had rehabilitation using artificial intelligence that was episode 199 and then access cute XO suits helping stroke victims episode 166 then we go to military and we had a an episode on lightning combat load that was episode what at what 94 Jeez 94 we've been doing this a long time and then of course augmenting the ability to walk and run that was episode 100 39 all right so we've talked a lot about the applications we talked a little bit about the article let's get into some of the human factors issues because it's really important right. You wanna go over like the first maybe 4 or 5 of these yeah I think I mean just sort of refresh reset about having said that I'm so many episodes on this yes there is quite a lot but there's still so much to do with HF because they they soon you into so many different things so the first thing the big things that they hit me straight away it is around latency control it's going to be you know the the the the input signals from whatever however you in putting it on the the the example that we go he's is through joysticks and things we feel a degree of you know when you doing senses of muscles and things like that if you don't have a good speed of light and C. M. a high speed latency than. You know gonna be able to react in the way that you're gonna need to you maybe you normal movements but when you look at it as we talk about abnormal maybe H. cases where you might Scott Foley might drop something or stop to so they might start to balance it off balance or something like that you need to be able to have the right of of really fast latency to a really short latency to make sure that you can do that. Then that leads you into control how do we actually control these things of a you know we we've got things like it almost trying to do the brain H. you are with us at the moment at the moment which franchise a really fascinating topic I'm not entirely sure when Ilan musk in my head but the idea of what you have you know the the the your thought control to control the the. The ex skeleton audio good to discuss muscles or do you have some sort of drugs to control. M. them 2 things I think. If we can hit them right then almost everything else falls into place but then the last the the the last 2 things I'll mention is around limits the limits. Because we as humans have of a range of movement if you exclude don't have the same range of movement or at least similar then I you actually restricting people and how do we make sure the people. You don't bat respectively but them limits and the limits rock on the range of movement also lifting capability rooms if you you know that you can lift 200 kilograms with this but this thing. Mmhm and you actually live tutored 5 new brakes what happens at that point how does it. Does it have graceful degradation and and things like that so yeah that that that my first full because it is. Yeah I I am gonna go just a little bit off script here I know we have this list of things we want to discuss but I do we do record these live and sometimes you get comments that are just too good to ignore so there's one from Barry W. in the chat here not this berry that I'm talking to but another very. He says so basically I depend on a mobility scooter because I have a feeling hips I hate the looks people give because I use that thing so in the future if exoskeletons could be used for lower limbs but one that's not too noticeable that would be amazing M. I want to take the opportunity to talk about the human factors issues associated with that because that is barriers to acceptance. You know that's a huge human factors issue when it comes to exoskeletons that something that. You know it things like ease of use right so being able to put it on you know it. That's going to be a huge factor in whether or not somebody's actually able to use one right and then you have. The number of people around you using exoskeletons there's this whole social pressure right and I think this is what he's getting at here where if you do you know if it was subtle if people didn't necessarily realize that you had an exoskeleton honor it was so subtle that it you know didn't. The awkward or clunky to use you might be more likely to use it. And then you also have things like performance how does it really impact your ability to do things right it is the exoskeleton going to improve the way in which you are either doing your job if you're in. In a warehouse or is it going to actually allow you to move faster. But you know exerting less energy so those are really important pieces of information when it comes to barriers and acceptance and I did want to just circle back to one of the things that you were saying right now I'm talking to you Barry the the control issue right and and you I think there's one thing. That I would like to add to that is is kind of the cognitive load associated with control. The the more passive you can make that control to at work with the body the less cognitive load that you have to deal with in order to make the thing do you make the exoskeleton do the thing that you wanted to do. You wanna talk a little bit about what happens when it fails. Yes yes I can okay all the best ones no but I. This is a this is the if things like this there are 3 key because when things are working fine and then it's brilliant is now an but rarely do things work exactly as you want so we automatically assume that things like Mexico you use the lower limb example is going to be you know if I'm working on on on flat land but what I'm saying I mean be on the other Barry we both live in Wales which is known for being very very hilly and so will it work walking uphill and if you. If you're in the situation where you take it so it might not be out of limits but you. Working in such a way that it does go out of limits what happens when you full of royal you fail but would help them but not if you want to what Ms when it breaks down you know just like Donnie Carroll your bike or whatever you know you get mechanical failure well if you're like halfway up a flight of stairs old something like that and and I the battery gives out all a mechanical failure happens any sort of stuck halfway up how do what's the what's the muscle recovery modes and how easy would that be to. To work and so yeah I I think there's loads of things around like that which will get solved in time but I think with them moreover he reflects approach redial Leon like now hello this can come to the foreign and defend the simple to solve you would like to thank but I don't I don't see I mean with the example of going out for the moment the let's see that that is immediately obvious. I think I think the article kind of shows me that they're thinking about it right they they understand that exoskeletons have to adapt to various modes and so you know maybe there is a hill mode in the future that. That can help with that type of thing I am yeah you're absolutely right though like with the design of what happens when it fails is going to be critical because you know where is the batteries it somewhere easily accessible or is it you know on your back or you can't reach it. Does the exoskeleton lock in place for heavy loads while you're carrying a heavy load or do you you know are you forced to drop it which could be very costly to. Somebody or to you if it falls on you and it's not discharged in the correct way right so there's really important human factors issues that we have to think about. I'm. I do wanna talk about sort of these diminishing returns associated with exoskeletons right we talk a lot about augmenting muscular. The augmenting muscles for better performance and it might actually be the case that you design an access skeleton for one part of the body and it might affect the way your whole body works and it might not necessarily be an improvement if you are straining another piece of your body I'm at the I guess reductive Rick reduced productive downward risk reduced. Efforts I guess reduce fatigue in the other part right so so the way the body works holistically is really important. Yeah the the benefits that specific body part or region that it's it's trying to solve might be completely negated by its affect on another region so that's just something I wanted to bring up. Do you have any other things that you wanna talk about here human factors issues Weiss yeah well the the other thing I think for me that is around training because the you know you you gonna want this thing to be useful used by everybody and it's going to take the approach that we have technology now you don't have to I have to have a user manual do you want to be able to strap the thing on and away you go so how would shoot it goes back to what you say and any around the by the control about just how we choose to visit going to be so you would you be able to just get into it power its own and start walking with it any any do everything you need to do but also it look after you in the. If you do stop failing it tells you exactly what's going on and things like that all right you gonna have to go and take like a degree calls just to be able to go in use you use your new exoskeleton trousers so I think there's a whole bunch of stuff around that around we do bake reducing the training needs as much as as much as practicable so it's it intuitive for use. And then combine that with with this the safety stuff we've we've kind of touched on. Mmhm. Is it only the you know it it's operation but for 20 talk about mechanical parts and so the ability for you know if you've got your hands in the wrong place at the wrong time would you and with the need and yeah you certainly then you you don't need an extra hand because you discussed in your excel leg. Sir yeah I think there's a lot of stuff on all not to be concerned about the. Yeah I think getting the right sort of H. of people involved we could we could solve a lot of that yes you can get the right human factors people involved I know when we did attend. Xterra go acts back in 2018 there was active development. Starting on industry standards for exoskeletons night truthfully haven't checked in on that standard is ation efforts since 2018 since we've been there. But if there are human factors professionals that are thinking about this in a way that's going to benefit the entire industry and so yeah we got some smart people working on it and looking forward to the future to see what that holds. It let's get back to the article I I mean we talked a lot about the human factors issues talked about the background on exoskeletons there anything else about this article that you want to bring up before we get out of here. I am I think I was probably a bit down on it to begin with but actually you raised the point about it it did not transforming motion that is trying to do is try to Seoul to issues with with one solution I think the public should be uploaded full pretty simply Albarran trip and trying to try to do stuff I still think it's got a good way to go but it's in the it's it's a M. an interesting next up. I agree I I would I would offer the same sentiment I think I was I first was excited when I saw the story and then I thought critically about it and then I thought critically again and was like okay no there's this is an active effort. Trying to solve problems and again we applaud that so. You know I did one thing I didn't do was social bots and I meant to do throughout but I don't think we got any so that's okay I will just say we did ask the social bots to see if anyone had used an exoskeleton and 100 percent has been no. It's so that's that's kind of crazy that you know I've I've never used an exoskeleton myself now that I think about it have you. I'm alive I'm not directly use one but I've had one of them I do a bit of stood next to one well it's been used. Yeah anyway so that's a that's where we're at for the social thoughts. And again just huge thank you to our patrons this week for selecting our topic thank you to our friends over at new atlas for our news story this week if you want to follow along join me for office hours on Mondays where I find these new stories we do post a link to the original article's as we find them. You know and and you can always join us in a slack or discord for more discussion on the stories we're gonna take a quick break and then we'll be back to see what's going on in the human factors community right after this human factors cast brings you the best in human factors news interviews conference coverage and overall fun conversations into each and every episode we produce but we can't do it without you. The human factors cast network is 100 percent listener supported all the funds are going to running the show come from our listeners our patrons are our priority and we want to ensure we're giving back to you for supporting us pledges start at just $1 per month and include rewards like access to our weekly Q. and a is with the hosts personalized professional reviews and human factors minute patrie on only weekly podcast where the host breakdown unique obscure and interesting human factors topics in just one minute patron rewards are always evolving so stop by Petri on.com slash human factors cast to see what support level may be right for you thank you and remember it depends. Thank you as always to our patrons and especially our honorary human factors cast staff and patrons like Michelle Tripp patrons like you keep the show running thank you all so much for your continued support you want to become a patron we are always doing some new interesting things over there like I said. Plug the lab this week but we we always got some fun things turning in the lab in our pay tree on. Subscribers are patrons are always kind of first in the notes to see what's going on we do release some bonus content over there so if that's something that you're interested in giving back to the show you can do that we have a whole separate podcast for you over there. New rewards fresh look always update you know all that stuff anyway we're we're close to some of our goals so considerate that's all I'm saying anyway I take I think it's time we get into this next part of the show we like to call came. Yes this is Marshall research all over the internet to bring you topics the communities talking about you find these answers use will give us a like wherever you're at help other people find this content we have 3 of them tonight and I'm gonna start with this first one here this is when the user experience I brought at this is by Susie XO this is an interviewer stated they needed innovation. In a I had a job interview for you X. designer at a fintech company interviewer stated that they are looking for high innovation and he wants users to be amazed by the innovation he then stated it is a chaotic company and all to figure things out by myself he asked how do you know if users will find the product easy to use I said there are several ways first through research and user testing second if there's limited time I can do some interesting evaluation look at industry leaders like Google he then said I don't want to hire senior designers because I don't want standard designs like Google I want something different and new he is not a designer so I'm not sure if what he's saying makes sense from a designer perspective the company is to help users pay the rent so I think the main goal should be to make it easy and accessible to use. There's a lot going on here I want to talk about innovation first and then maybe we can get into. Expectations about what you do your job role as so what what is innovation to you. Well this always makes me laugh at a slightly cynical way because everybody knows what innovations such a buzzword of the moment everybody wanted of innovation not only does everyone invest what everybody innovates. And that's just not true Sir for me innovation is actually you know just coming up with ideas out of thin air but actually the the definition I tend to use is the transfer of an implementation for one divine where it's used to do it to another demand was not used. Because every year nothing is new under the sun things have generally been done won't either don't all thought of before. You ready get booked up for that first gold so when people say about them. You know they they don't need innovative solution okay the what the ones that I haven't seen before the win something that's fine so you go look go look into the demands good and blessed palazzo stuff across and then there's the other one around with what we think outside the box. Well that just means you haven't worked out what books you read because you've actually just in a big box and for me to report to which ones are the boundaries which actually kind of gets to what this question easy is about you know it's like D.. The questions that that would that would pose right so do I have a lot of time to do this to other a little little amount of time to get this sort of research because there's different approaches you can take which seems really good but then to have that some well I don't do whatever else is doing okay but depending which one you want to throw that I guess so we'll talk about budget later. Yes we will. Look what what is in the basement you look innovation to me is a lot what you said I think there's a way to think about innovation where you are not as disruptive as. Sort of these start up industries right they they they they are started because they are disrupting an industry and it it takes a lot to get to that point. Now. To me. Innovation is not a what like you said it's taking from other domains and applying it to their main your end but I think beyond that it's also improving on the margins of what you're already doing. And I think the marginal gains across sort of what you're doing right you might improve a process slightly over here and then sort of improve a process slightly over there but together they may bring up the whole process the process as a whole right. So. It's it's not just thinking about. The sort of these these big sweeping changes that's how can you make miniature changes across many different things for this constant improvement that always improves the way that you do things it always improves the procedures that you're implementing and improving the designs because. Some other industry is doing it well right so these margins that's what I think and then there's the discussion about. Expectations from somebody who's outside of your domain this is from a design perspective but this happens also in human factors where people don't necessarily understand what we do when they have this idea in their head that they want to happen and it's a lot about pushing back and say my role is to do acts in you know human factors it's too. Improved. Improve products processes procedures services. Things for humans that's that's our role broadly. For designer might be to make something pretty and I I I. I don't want to be degrading there but like you know their their their job is to make something that's not only usable but beautiful and there's a lot of crossover anyway the point is you push back and tell them what your job is. Maybe not in the interview but you know once you get hired yeah. Yeah it's a it is one of the things always the it's the how can cause because this is an interview it's it does give you a real good insight into what is the you're potentially going to be going to do and and interview very much I still think it's a 2 way process that not only. You will yes it's it's also tend to think that yes I need to get this I need to get your money to get the offer but there's gonna be times we just looking to actually what the vines that I'm getting from the interview well open live interview was just means it's not so marijuana bay if they if they're asking you stupid questions or what you consider to be stupid questions all those questions are not relevant then what does that tell you about what is you going into it might be that you just get good and interview by a job which is fine they do you can you can expect them to have a a technical knowledge but yeah you gotta take your own and take you on view will not but if that's what you want to be yeah as you say if the if the data is always you lay out it I think it's a it's a bit of a problem that we sometimes have because we want to please everybody you want to you know basically says and that is so does leading to impossible to set extends the citizens as well I want to be like this you start questioning yourself or who should I be delivered not only a dab of I got it if I could be wrong in myself that he be selfish I could no because no I don't talk about laid on the line and and say well you know you you in this instance he rather have lots of reading original design and development blessed take time it's going to it's going to cost money eccentric xetra or if you want something quick and dirty then it will go to you know we'll take a look what is good practice if you consider Google to go practice all you if you take your lead use what they've done the subs up that the quite successful of I've I've heard of Google I think that kind of a little bit about what the doing therefore it's probably know about but lead to take some. R. O. in steel yeah. It can be gone for a long time yeah same here all right let's let's talk about intellectual property so this next one hears from the also from the user experience abroad at this is from neon nights. They rights using my company's design language in a personal project over the past 2.5 years ever find my company's design language to put to the point where I find it incredibly intuitive design with I'm a co founder of the company but it's owned by a large conglomerate. I'm working on a personal project I've started designing off of I started designing it using my company's design language because it was intuitive. I know struggling whether this is inappropriate to be publishing something that has a similar look to your company I asked my C. E. O. he said it would probably wasn't a big deal but I'm skeptical I've been trying for the past 2 days to redesign it with a different design language but none of them strike me as much as my companies do you think it's fine if I use the design language and maybe change a couple things to progress the colors that cetera so this is a more important question about intellectual property what's yours what's the company's. And berry I'm really curious to get your thoughts on this one. It's simple don't do it. I'm a dad and a fundamental thing and that this couple reasons for this so yes you can take something that works beautifully for you you can put a put a couple changes as of that is if that significance and allows you to be different to what what is it that gold. But what ET yes you if you're the co founded the committee but you don't own it then no matter who you open yourself up to the the owning company come out if you were whoever owns it coming to you and said I see that you just with the stress off us we own that we we own this they they this design this did this design language and you've used up your product that full we own we gonna see you for it. You could even get even worse than that because if they do if you produce something quite entertainment you get your thing and you try to go to market with that then is your personal projects because you've used a design language that they could argue that they own they now would your IP so it's also worth checking euro contracts around that because sometimes companies do right closes in there around that as a as another example of they so it's not use design I will design it would be if you I've noticed some companies if you talk about extracurricular activities on that email systems and you talk about potentially a a new. You know new product or something like that the developing elsewhere they actually have legitimate claim to your I. P. because you use the system to talk about it and it's a legally they could they sometimes can go and then at least give you a hard time over it I've noticed one situation where they've actually taken a a product this one is produced in their own time but used the exit they spoke about on a on a company email system to make that work. So in short I. D. level of risk I think you've got is quite high is this something that that you want to actually even if it's a personal project that you just do something for home you know that type of thing just do you do your thing it's so much easier yeah it's it's pretty cut and dry when you have a situation where it is AT a visible thing right especially in design you don't want to do that because you you can clearly tie it back to another company thank you it gets a little bit more tricky when you're talking about I. P. that's more process based or procedure based. I would still advocate that you don't do it and in fact I there's there are I think it's the best practice here at least in the states where yes the the company owns everything you do on their laptop and so if you do have any up to it you know any original ideas I would say don't documented on that laptop documented on your own laptop work on it away from the company computer because that can come back and bite you are they they do technically all that and so. As for taking process these procedures from one company to another. This is a difficult question because you have a lot of things that are standard best practice like if I did I hear Ristic evaluation at one company and I did it at another company. Wow. And it was the same methodology it but the methodology was out there in the literature. At where who owns that I. P. will technically it's a person who did the research on it. Then you know if it is an industry best practice then you have the shared collective best interests to ensure that everyone is using that methodology so that way. Stocks are the best they can be and so it it gets a little bit more and I don't have the answers I don't have the answers to be clear but it does get a little bit more dicey when you're talking about. Right Terry process these procedures but things like code and things like designs those are easy to trace back so just don't do it. All right we we got one more here anyone a researcher to company with low research budget how detrimental is it. This is by peanut butter person from the user experience sub reddit Hey everyone does anyone use does anyone work as a user experience researcher at an organization with low to little research budget I'm debating if I should take a new U. X. researcher job a small slash midsize company with very small research budget how does the recruiting happened coming from a huge organization with unlimited budget gets me kind of nervous would you rely mostly on customers for user sessions as opposed to external I'd love to hear your experiences would this be a deal breaker for you I imagine it may slow things down quite a bit due to longer times of recruiting and getting the right participants how do you deal with a situation where you have a limited budget have you ever experienced a situation with a limited budget berry. Well like every day the week this is I mean this is yeah this is day normal for me. At the end the day I mean I've I've never been in a situation with a company with unlimited budgets I mean not that almost scares me mole because where you boundaries I think the I think with any research budget you you always have to scope it to to some level and you always get a coat a gun a new Skippy to some so time cost quality type issue and object with the U. U. X. recent Concorde respaldo small midsize company with small research budget so you take a tally of cloth accordingly you you you you might be able to do less engaged we could but you be can do bono willing gauge mint you may be in Khan and utilize the big ways buying everyday expensive tools yeah the response by truck is the all that sort of stuff to be a do what you doing with the ratchet dissolutions out that though you did you can be slightly more intuitive and in your solutions to look back to the other one so I think it's I mean for me I doctor I like the challenge I like the challenge of just people coming out way that you know that is very specific budget but wanting the world and you consulted there and say well actually I can't believe that our country of the world that can deliver a significant chunk of it using these techniques Sir I do I do I you must be able to challenge of an unlimited but just did what I could do with a limited budget they'll be amazing. What are you. Yes so. Budget is interesting because there's more well I want to tackle this from 2 fronts right that budget is interesting because on some projects you have that built into the budget and you have to consider how much you have at your disposal. And most of the time is kind of do you have an idea of the tools that you've used you know roughly what fits into that mold. But if you're coming from a situation where you had an unlimited budget and nothing's off limits then that's a little bit different because they have to pare it down however I will echo that if you get into that situation some of that those constraints do drive innovation and they do sort of force you to look into different solutions that you might not otherwise and so. Having those constraints actually might help you and really what it comes down to it I don't know how you feel about this but really all you need is some sort of spreadsheet software and some sort of note taking software if that pen and paper can do just fine some way to create a form for people to fill in information is nice to have but you can do your job with kind of the bare minimum and if you are coming and approaching problems from that perspective where everything else is a nice to have then you can do quite a bit with just a small budget let me tell you that. I completely agree. All right well I think is that tied it time a show needs no introduction it is just one more thing Barry what's your one more thing for this week so actually it is an update from you'll nothing last week I've watched squid came all the way through I mean I'm now in the zone I and I guess it. But my problem all thing this week of the past few weeks we've had some fuel droughts in the U. K. so we have now this was getting to the the fuel to petrol stations and so this is led me to now stop reading considering. The purchase of a of a TV and abducted vehicle and it's been a really interesting though because I'm this old but I've never bought new copy full novel I was by so second hands used cars and so this is been an education just the the the sort of things that you can go and get up to and I guess the biggest insight for me was going to the local carriage they added unveiling of a of a new easy and they don't have treat you differently when you're going to look at a new come as opposed to a second hand car the did did the customer experience was was was was very different. Sir good because you're going to spend a lot more books with them but it was it was in but going to see these new Evey was read out it's interesting seeing how the technology is moving on so quickly. We thought looked at the you know the the taz lives and things like this this was a this was a kia that we looked up and just the more integration back into almost what a car should look like but also making use the gadgets I just think it's now see the hands on and actually it's very different evaluating. E. V. from a distance later we talk about Tesla's we talked about that you know M. automation technologies and things but I have now seen them quite close with the potential of getting my own hands on one it's getting M. can quite exciting now are you are you gonna go for like all the bells and whistles that allow you for some self driving capabilities or anything like that okay I'll be thinking about it but I don't know whether it's a bit like this having cruise control in the U. K. because we don't have quite the same long open roads you have in the states to actually truly make use of cruise control if I could shoot cruise control mold to make sure I don't speed in in speed limited areas more than anything else Sir we once we do we'll see we got motorways and stuff like that so you could you could use them I was talking to any of the user last Saturday who they use it quite a lot when they're on the motorways a name quite liked it so possum is quite tempted just beauty because I mean as you dumb enough to got you think so I would absolutely love to have it but it's one of these things what do you use it for maybe the first few weeks and then actually just not bother after that you just you just click on that like to have I like to have the opportunity. Well who knows if we get a couple more patrons we might as well let's see what we. Prince for the shuttle right it's for the show isn't that a bit bit the dust from the Tesla just just waiting in the drive. Oh man well I I wanna talk about my one more thing because it's a it's a culture shock what's hi yeah I guess that's the best way to put it so I just found out that well I didn't just find this out I found this out a couple weeks ago but I am now using a Macintosh a a macbook pro for full time work and this is an adjustment for me and I have found that. Coming from 1 operating system where you know all the ink intricacies I'm talking windows here but you I I know my way around windows and when I I haven't opened up a Max in 2016 and before that it wasn't sense the Max of the nineties where you had the big fat colorful back into them right. That's gonna offend somebody anyway I think there is. There's a lot that mac does right for the people that use their products and to me coming from a different products family. It's a hard learning curve there's a lot of things that I fixed in the first week that I found myself going. This shouldn't operate this way and I said well wait now the people who use this for is this like conflict in my head it's the people that use this understand it this way and I don't understand it this way so maybe it's just me but then I'm like wait isn't shouldn't I don't I've caught myself in these loops and I've also spent so much time fixing the things to the way I feel like they should be operating and I'm. It's so weird because I'll I'll be doing something some long string of tasks and then all the sudden I will hit one of these snags that's O. S. related and. And another half an hour trying to figure out how to fix it or make it the way they expected to go and then I'll forget the task that I was initially doing and that break in work flow is so detrimental. I will get used to it it will be fine but I'm just saying there's some growing pains at struggling culture clash whatever you wanna call it it's it's a little rough. I keep on getting them confused you should use a mac should use what I've I'm 77 of 9 I've always used PC's I've had so I've I flirted with cemex in the past and basically the what's the boxes you can get the good the Intel processor the mac mini's. I'm sorry we've we've had a couple of them just to do some video processing and stuff. But I like them as well because you can use it to to put miles on them. But yeah I'd I'd I'd I feel sorry for you having to to go down the route I like that I'm sure he'll be fine in time but I'd I'd think I'd find the learning curve very frustrating yeah it is very frustrating anyway that's gonna be it for today if you like this episode we invite you to check out any one of the many episodes on exoskeletons I've referenced for tonight's episode we have a lot of content wherever you're listening with what you think the story this week for more in depth discussion you can always join us on our slack or discord communities visit our official website sign up for our newsletter to stay up to date with all the latest human factors news if you like what you hear and you wanna support the show there's a couple things you can do one leave us a 5 star review that is free for you you can do that right now to tell your friends about us word of mouth is how we grow really helps the show 3 if you wanna give Barry at Tesla with auto pilot on it consider supporting us unpatriotic there's always links to all of our socials and our website the description of this episode I think Mr Barry Kirby for being on the show today again we're gonna listeners going find you they want to talk about exoskeleton. On 20 give ME AD 1000 disk okay and you can also find me on the travel to you if I just focus which if you just go to any such made for a psychological test you find the. As for me I mean her neck road you could buy me streaming on twitch every Monday evening from 4 to 5:00 Pacific office hours in across social media at Nick _ Rome thanks again for tuning into human factors cast until next time. APA.